Gas ovens poison your home and make you stupid.
That depends on how well vented they are. Most people undersize their range hoods for aesthetics and don’t take venting seriously. Of course recent findings show it’s a bad idea to cut corners on that with gas stoves, and ovens to some extent. But it’s mostly stoves that have the issue you describe.
While they are less of a problem when they’re better vented, they’re still a really big problem. You can’t possibly vent them well enough.
Still sounds like you’re talking about stoves. To use a stove, you inherently need to stand next to it and your face is between the flame and the vent. Ovens are well insulated (this is important for energy efficiency), they vent to the outside, and you are not generally standing over the oven throughout the baking.
Where do you think the oven vents its exhaust gases to? The outside? So you have an exhaust vent directly attached to the oven? Which model of stove does this? Most of them vent into the range hood like the stovetop, or just into the room.
Let’s give a better example…. A well vented stovetop…… and you burn something on it really badly….
Does the vent catch ALL the burning smell? Or does the kitchen still smell of burnt food?
Yeah, that smell is the gases and particles that the venting didn’t catch…… there’s still a fair bit, isn’t there…… can you smell the burning?
The amount of gas that’s healthy for you to consume is basically zero, so even if the range hood catches 90% (I think it’s closer to 60, but I don’t have a source on that), there’s still a lot in the air.
K, so put the condescension away when you can do these experiments at home with the help of a responsible adult.
I think they’re talking about ovens in the kitchen, not heating with gas.
Oh, thanks, now I see.
Poor venting is not inherent in the technology. A diligent installer can run a duct from the oven to the outside just like we do for gas boilers. A diligent building code can even make it mandatory. The lack of gas ovens (and selection thereof) in Belgium is not likely a consequence of concern for toxic gases, because if it were, then gas boilers (which burn far more fuel than an oven would) would be far less popular than they are. So what is your theory on that difference?
You open the front of your gas boiler?
Exchanging air with the environment?
If I were to open the boiler before and after using it just as I have a wood stove, that brief exposure to trace amounts of toxins once a day would not influence a choice to use it. That theory is quite far fetched.
The finding that gas stove toxins can be significant is also more recent than the popularity drop in gas ovens. IOW, to have a cause-effect, the cause must come chronologically before the effect.
(edit) also worth noting that gas stoves are still popular in Belgium, just not ovens. So this theory is bogus. People are not going to avoid ovens out of fear of toxins when the door opens while at the same time having no problem with gas stoves.
It’s Time To Break Up With Our Gas Stoves | Climate Town - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX2aZUav-54
Was it always the case though? You should probably roll back to data in the 70’s for wider house appliance rollout. Then if it’s not a thing for a generation, it’s never gonna be a thing. For today, electricity is easier to decarbonate I guess
That’s it. Gas used to be cheaper.
Why do you say that in the past tense? You can see from my figures that in Belgium gas is still cheaper.
This is something that varies from one region to another. In the US, some states have cheaper electric than gas. Electric is less efficient because of big losses in all the conversion steps:
fuel energy → heat energy→ steam → turbine → transmission → heat energy
Gas simply has:
fuel energy → transmission → heat energy
It is important to note that gas transmission is also lossy due to the impossibility of leak-free main lines, but it’s still more efficient in the end. Thus in most of the world gas is also naturally cheaper due to the efficiency difference. It gets inverted in some regions because of pricing manipulations as well as the drive to promote green energy (and rightfully so – social responsibility should be incentivized). And in some regions they cut down on the transmission losses by putting the power plant inside or close to the big city. But in Belgium gas is still cheaper than electric even despite Russia’s war and efforts to get off Russian fuels.
Electricity is usually not made from fuel, though, but from a wide variety of resources. And you forgot the last step – transmission of heat from the stove to the food. Gas stoves are far inferior in this step, losing most of the heat into the surtounding air. Induction stoves have almost no transmission loss.
Another reason is installation. In order to use gas in the kitchen, you have to have a gas pipe in the kitchen, which has become very unusual. During construction, it’s easier and cheaper to not lay gas pipes. Most people do not have a choice – either you got an old house witha gas pipe in the kitchen or a newer one with a 400 V power outlet.
Electricity is usually not made from fuel
You’re generally wrong on that:
“Over 60% of global electricity generated so far in 2023 was produced by fossil fuels” --Reuters
Belgium is what’s relevant in the case at hand. In Belgium ~20% of power is from solar, wind, and hydro. The other 80% is from burning fuel. I group nuclear with fossil fuel because the nuclear power plant in Belgium is being decommissioned and will be replaced with 3 new gas burning plants.
Gas stoves are far inferior in this step, losing most of the heat into the surtounding air. Induction stoves have almost no transmission loss.
That’s true but that’s stoves not ovens. You’d have to exaggerate quite a bit to claim more than half of the heat energy is wasted on gas stoves or ovens.
In order to use gas in the kitchen, you have to have a gas pipe in the kitchen, which has become very unusual.
Where? Unusual Belgium-wide? The cities concentrate populations. Brussels city is mostly old homes likely all piped with gas judging from the dominance of gas boilers. Are you saying there are lots of old homes that did not bother to branch a gas pipe into the kitchen?
During construction, it’s easier and cheaper to not lay gas pipes.
That’d be a false economy. Pipes are like ~€7 per meter so it would take ~1—2 years for the pipes to pay for themselves if they are used for daily cooking.
Most people do not have a choice – either you got an old house witha gas pipe in the kitchen or a newer one with a 400 V power outlet.
I do not have a 400V outlet. I have no idea how many electric ovens require that, do you? I’m using a crappy portable 220V oven. If the big properly insulated wall ovens are 400V, then I would have to run a new line to the fuse box. Not sure if I could wire that myself, which I assume involves bridging two 220V circuits.
I guess most people don’t do their own work. So you are implying hiring someone to add one or the other post-construction would be cost prohibitive. Sounds reasonable. But I’m not convinced kitchens lack gas pipes to begin with because gas stovetops are still popular in Belgium. Just not gas ovens.
(edit) In Brussels in 2011, “natural gas consumption was 10,480 GWh and the electricity consumption was 5,087 GWh”, according to Wikipedia.
To me induction beats gas at cooking. It’s always faster and more efficient to boil water using an induction stove rather than a gas stove.
I’m still waiting for someone to show me an induction oven. This is the same as saying “don’t use an oven at all”. Of course, if you don’t need an oven, then it would not make sense to install an oven at all.
You can use a hallogen oven which heats up more quickly as well.
Your mistake is assuming electricity always comes from fuel.
It’s not an assumption. This is how power is produced in Belgium. There is only 1 nuclear power plant and it’s being decommissioned. 3 new fossil fuel burning power plants will be built.
Your statements are inaccurate to a degree that they may as well be false.
Only 30% is gas. 70% is not gas. Renewables are growing extremely rapidly, now at over 25%. In the medium and long term Belgium is aiming to reduce its use of gas as much as possible.
Also, there are two nuclear power plants, not one.
Betting on gas, be it a stove or something else, is just stupid.
Nice corrections
Get your facts straight, or update Wikipedia to reflect your understanding:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Belgium
wind + solar + hydro → 20%
80% from burning fuels¹. With 3 new gas-burning plants under construction to replace nuclear, that’s not going to improve things.
Belgium is aiming to reduce its use of gas as much as possible.
Nonsense. I guess you missed the whole “Code Red” march against Electrabel last year protesting the plan to build 3 new gas-burning power plants.
there are two nuclear power plants, not one.
And that’s important why? From wikipedia:
“Belgium decided to phase out nuclear power generation completely by 2025.”
Whether there are 1, 2, or 5 nuclear plants is immaterial when it’s all being phased out, and replaced with gas-burning power plants.
Betting on gas, be it a stove or something else, is just stupid.
Betting in a way that neglects plans that have already been announced is stupid for sure.
¹ recall: fuel energy → heat energy→ steam → turbine → transmission → heat energy
I’ll summarise why this is wrong too
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Ignoring other renewables
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Ignoring French nuclear imports
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Ignoring current state but talking about possible future plans
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