- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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I wonder if it’ll get to a point where some of the world leaders still backing Israel financially and with munitions actually have to do something. Like, is there any amount of cruelty and atrocity at this point that they won’t fund? Does it literally have to get all the way to concentration camps? Overt industrialized systematic genocide? Where’s their line?
The line is where the people in their own countries force them to stop supporting Israel while atrocities continue. This is why speaking up, in your communities, on social media, by joining protests and by boycotting companies that support the IDF, is so important. People outside Israel can not make the IDF stop. But we can pressure our governments to deny any further support for Israel or better yet sanction key players, to pressure Israel into stopping.
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Where’s their line?
Based on WW2:
- Cruelty and atrocity: nice…
- Concentration camps: nothing to see here, everyone has them
- Systematic genocide: who hasn’t done some genociding at one point or another?
- Overt industrialized systematic genocide: …only if they attack you first.
Luckily we now have the Universal Declaration of Human Rights… which everyone is ignoring. Oh well, we tried.
This is a direct consequence of two things: Hamas not wearing uniforms in combat and their tendency to use suicide bombers. They are told to undress themselves before processing - they don’t stay that way.
How would any of the people criticizing this deal with a large group of fighting age men in a war zone?
you do realize that people once they are detained and checked for weapons cannot magically conjure weapons into their trousers?
there is no need to keep the people undressed. it is purely for humiliation.
No, it’s based on safety. You can’t give them their own clothing back, because this would require you to check each and every item of clothing for weapons. They are being transported to a processing location, given clothing there. Temperatures were around 20° C (68° F) there when these videos and photos were taken, so it’s not like they were freezing.
So explain the logistics to me:
the men are asked to undress by themselves? so they have their hands free and could grab any weapon inside their clothes? or are they undressed by the soldiers? The first doesnt make sense because then the argument of safety is mood. the second doesnt make sense because the soldiers would find any weapons that are in the clothes.
Then you say they are transported to a “processing location” Then why is there videos of people sitting there for hours? why is there no transport vehicle on site? Why wouldnt people be checked for weapons and then secured inside a transport vehicle?
But even leaving all of this aside. The men have their hands tied behind their backs. How would they be able to attack a soldier with a weapon that somehow was not found in the checks before? Firearms are simply impossible to hide. So the only thing that somehow could have slipped passed would be tiny shivs. How would someone that somehow managed to reach for a small shiv in his pocket be a danger to a soldier with his hands tied behind the back? Did you ever try walking backwards on a straight line? Now imagine doing so with your hands tied and trying to hit the right angle so you can inflict a wound upon someone who wears body armor.
Further considerations: Why would someone with the goal to fight the IDF wait to get detained to then try such a ridiculous maneuver, where the margin of success is nonexistent and death is certain? It would make much more sense to shoot at them from a window when they walk down the street.
And finally: If there is a true military need to act like this, why did we not see these kind of pictures on a regular basis from the Ukrainian military?
I fail to see a military justification for this. Especially since other militaries are perfectly capeable to handle suspects and POWs without stripping them down like this.
the men are asked to undress by themselves?
They are outnumbered, guns are being pointed at them as they are undressing, armored vehicles watch the whole thing and it’s right in the open. There’s at least one potentially spicy drone circling overhead. If any one of these people wants to die a martyr’s death, that’s all he’s going to achieve.
Then why is there videos of people sitting there for hours?
No idea what you watched, but there is no multiple hour long video of this event, only short snippets and a handful of photos. Instead, they are being shown stepping into trucks, with some men already sitting there.
The men have their hands tied behind their backs.
That’s after they have undressed and surrendered their weapons. There is a video of a man bringing their guns to the Israeli soldiers one after the other, over his head.
Why would someone with the goal to fight the IDF wait to get detained to then try such a ridiculous maneuver, where the margin of success is nonexistent and death is certain?
Ask Japanese soldiers that pulled these stunts in WW2, North Korean soldiers that did so during the Korean war, Vietcong that fainted surrender, various Islamist extremists who have done exactly this in the past. It’s not rational behavior, because these men are being indoctrinated into a very contradictory, very irrational belief system. They are being taught from kindergarten that dying for your cause is the most honorable thing a man can do.
If there is a true military need to act like this, why did we not see these kind of pictures on a regular basis from the Ukrainian military?
Except we do. I have seen exactly this in photos and videos from Ukraine - except that the Ukrainians were far rougher with their Russian detainees and the colder temperatures made the whole deal far less pleasant for the POWs. Footage of this kind is very rare though and for an obvious reason: People who aren’t well informed easily get outraged and it can be used for counter propaganda.
They’ve been checked for weapons. The clothes would be known to be weapon-less. How do you even have any upvotes?
How would they be known to be weaponless if the men had to undress themselves?
You may not want to “check for weapons” a suicide bomber who’s just waiting for you to come close to turn you both into tiny chunks of meat.
What you want, is to threaten them with a weapon from a distance, have them take off any clothes that could contain explosives (that includes socks and briefs), and throw them far away from you. They could still hide some C4 up their ass, but that’s a risk you might have to take.
The correct thing would be to subsequently provide them with pre-checked clothes, like an orange jumpsuit… so if they didn’t, that’s where we may agree it starts being abusive (although unfortunately in line with what many countries routinely do to their prisoners).
Holy fuck Lemmy has been overrun by conservative astroturfers.
Why would they be conservative ? I do agree with you that this thread is full of people trying to justify the unjustifiable, but let me remind you the party in power providing its full unquestionable support for Israel is the Democrat party, spearheaded by Biden, a Democrat president, who is very, very happy and supportive with all this. So being a douche is a bit all over the place if you ask me. You can’t necessarily point at douchebaggery and instantly realize it’s conservative.
Yea, I’m confused about the conservative comment as well. I went through the thread and didn’t see anything that would imply right or left leaning discussion. Which I don’t see why anyone would have a problem. We shouldnt go on social media to be in an echo chamber, that is so boring in concept and reality.
Firstly this is a non-story of try-hard outrage. Secondly, the real concern of bombing was addressed just today by Biden who sees through Bibi’s ultra-conservative agenda and publicly criticised him for it.
Specifically Beehaw, it looks like. Ugh.
stripped them down into their unmentionables in the blistering cold, which is inhumane if you ask me.
About 20⁰C in the shade and they were sitting down in the sunlight.
your own picture shows 16°C and the days in question had 13-15°C in the morning and evening.
If you sit idle without clothes for hours even in 17°C you will get cold as fuck. If it would have been 5°C this could have caused serious medical issues. If it would have been freezing, some of them could have reached life threatening hypothermia.
The term is perfectly viable in the context.
your own picture shows 16°C
No, it shows 21⁰C. Why are you looking at the minimum temperature? That is totally irrelevant.
You can see from the photo that it is the middle of a winter’s day (sun is slightly lowered in the sky in winter at midday, not directly overhead).
On Thursday, a video emerged of men rounded up, forced to stand in formation, and then to sit down in the street
So let’s get even more accurate. That particular Thursday it was 22⁰C in the shade. Perfect temperature to be sitting out in the sun comfortably as it happens.
There were dreadful bombings earlier and yet you want us to focus on this non-story.
If it would have been 5°C this could ave caused serious medical issues. it would have been freezing, some of them could have reached life threatening hypothermia.
If it would have been hailing they could have been knocked unconscious.
If there was a hurricane they could have been dashed against the concrete walls.
If there was a meteorite they could have been pulverised.
If they didn’t have dicks they could have been women.
If they were 5 years old they would have been children.
If they had long necks and four legs they could have been giraffes.
the comment criticised that it was refered to as cold. I gave example as to why in this circumstance 16°C are to be considered cold.
16⁰C is not the temperature they were sitting in. What is wrong with you? How many times must you be told?
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The picture shows about 20⁹C max each day. That photo was taken at about midday judging by shadows (being winter the Sun would not be directly overhead).
So in fact it was about the most comfortable weather possible.
Thanks for the fact check.
… and fear amongst Hamas members
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This was far down in the story therefore many of you may have missed it…
We do know that some of these men were released after having been detained initially. One of Hani’s cousins was released after a couple of hours in detention. So it may be that many of these men that we’ve seen in these videos have since been released by Israel…
This is northern Gaza we’re talking about. They were given an evacuation order, and it might be that the Israelis feel anyone who remains poses a threat because they didn’t leave.
Evacuation order is quite a weak argument,given that Israep heavily bombards the areas people are told to evacuate to as well as target people moving south on the designated “safe” routes. And even after that, all there is left in southern Gaza are overcrowded tent cities.
It is pervectly human to want to stay in your home if the alternatives arent any safet.
Israel heavily bombards the areas people are told to evacuate to as well
You got evidence of that? I don’t trust the ruling party of Israel but I have yet to see evidence of this. Find it and you will see me reproducing it in these forums to shame the IDF.
Israel never promised that the safe zones would not be bombed. These zones were meant to protect civilians from the bulk of the ground fighting. Nothing more, nothing less. Hamas is still present in these “safe” zones, they are fighting rockets from there, keeping hostages and their commanders in these places.
Israel did not target people moving South. Hamas themselves have blown up and shot people trying to flee in order to prevent their “human shields” from leaving. Conveniently, they then blamed Israel, even though we have an IED that looks nothing like an Israeli bomb on video.
It is true that fleeing your home is never easy and that the conditions in the South are terrible, but being poor and alive in a tent is still better than being with your possessions in your home (but dead) in the North.
And it is perfectly sensible to vet those who remained if the alternative isn’t safe for the soldiers trying to root out Hamas.
Not that I think rooting them out is a realistic goal without depopulating all of Gaza which unfortunately looks like the plan.
it seems that they have gone from house to house, apartment to apartment and arrested all of the men who remain.
We just happened to see that video and then: Oh, crap. This is my brother; this is my nephew.
Is the journalist seriously implying this was unnecessary because the IDF could root out Hamas by just asking family members?
