Growing up rural and poor, venison was the difference between everyone eating well or my parents having to skip meals. A box of shotgun shells cost $10 and if we took 2 or 3 deer it would be enough to fill a chest freezer and last most of the year, also we would trade it with local farmers for vegetables and watermen for seafood.
White tail deer must be killed, we have broken their habitat.
Over the last 400 years Millions of acres of Forrest have been converted to planes and farmland, and most of the large North American predators have been killed.
So instead of deer having to forrage in Forrest they can be eat more effectively by grazing, and without natural predators like wolves the deer population can grow unchecked. Deer will reproduce until the area can’t support the population leading to starvation. Also the deer population has let them spread to new areas where they can out compeat animals like moose, elk, and caraboo, causing the larger animals population to plummet.
We shouldn’t cull humans for the obvious ethical reasons
nor should we cull other species, for the obvious ethical reasons. If your solution to a problem is “kill until it’s not a problem anymore”, guess what, that’s not good enough
Unnecessary killing is wrong? Killing is something to avoid? Taking anothers life should be a last resort and if it is absolutely necessary, we should always be trying to stop it or find ways to make it unnecessary? Live and let live? Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you?
idk those are pretty obvious to me, if they’re not obvious to you then idk what to tell you
I think we just have different values when it comes to wildlife, and animals. “Live and let live” “Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you” as social contracts work for human interactions, but animals lack the capacity to understand those concepts and can’t hold up their end of the contract. A cat won’t live and let live, a cat will kill every bird it can get it’s hands on. Nature is a brutal unstable equilibrium, and human actions have made it more unstable. But as thinking animals we have the ability to reduce the harm we have caused. We need to reduce suffering where we can, and maintain the welfare not just of individual animals but of their populations and environments.
Deer behave differently in the presence of predators. They migrate less, the reproduce more manageably. Overpopulation of deer results in overgrazing where they can effectively kill entire species of plants or desertify areas. We’ve engineered an environment without their natural predators.
Culling and hunting them is different than if we caught and release neutered them.
I’m not a hunter, and I’d be fine if we just introduced wild predators like wolves (I saw a study that this was actually healthy to their population).
Exactly, it’s not simple, hence the need for better, more ethical solutions. I don’t know the best solution, I’m not an expert on deer or ecosystems, but I think we can do better than killing till the problem goes away
So you’re okay with their suggestion of introducing wolves to help control the deer population? (which for the record, I’m not denying is genuinely a promising strategy to help with the problem)
But if you are, then how is that not also “unnecessary killing”? The end result is essentially the same thing, dead deer that become food for another specie.
Yeah, I mean when you look at how much suffering humans cause despite all our intelligence it’s not that hard to be jaded. Even then, at least for me, it’s a lot easier to empathize with humans than other species. It’s also a lot easier for me to empathize with humans in my social circles than humans I don’t know.
it bothers me when people arbitrarily limit who they’ll empathize with.
Growing up rural and poor, venison was the difference between everyone eating well or my parents having to skip meals. A box of shotgun shells cost $10 and if we took 2 or 3 deer it would be enough to fill a chest freezer and last most of the year, also we would trade it with local farmers for vegetables and watermen for seafood.
I can understand why people with no other choice would hunt. If there are other options though, it’s unnecessary killing and violence
White tail deer must be killed, we have broken their habitat.
Over the last 400 years Millions of acres of Forrest have been converted to planes and farmland, and most of the large North American predators have been killed.
So instead of deer having to forrage in Forrest they can be eat more effectively by grazing, and without natural predators like wolves the deer population can grow unchecked. Deer will reproduce until the area can’t support the population leading to starvation. Also the deer population has let them spread to new areas where they can out compeat animals like moose, elk, and caraboo, causing the larger animals population to plummet.
Do you think the same strategy should be applied to feral housecats? How about overpopulating humans?
This is apples to oranges to cucumbers.
We probably should cull and/or spay feral cats because they do have a large measurable ecological impact.
We shouldn’t cull humans for the obvious ethical reasons, but we should try harder to treat the planet right.
nor should we cull other species, for the obvious ethical reasons. If your solution to a problem is “kill until it’s not a problem anymore”, guess what, that’s not good enough
What obvious ethical reasons?
Unnecessary killing is wrong? Killing is something to avoid? Taking anothers life should be a last resort and if it is absolutely necessary, we should always be trying to stop it or find ways to make it unnecessary? Live and let live? Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you?
idk those are pretty obvious to me, if they’re not obvious to you then idk what to tell you
I think we just have different values when it comes to wildlife, and animals. “Live and let live” “Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you” as social contracts work for human interactions, but animals lack the capacity to understand those concepts and can’t hold up their end of the contract. A cat won’t live and let live, a cat will kill every bird it can get it’s hands on. Nature is a brutal unstable equilibrium, and human actions have made it more unstable. But as thinking animals we have the ability to reduce the harm we have caused. We need to reduce suffering where we can, and maintain the welfare not just of individual animals but of their populations and environments.
I don’t think it’s that simple.
Deer behave differently in the presence of predators. They migrate less, the reproduce more manageably. Overpopulation of deer results in overgrazing where they can effectively kill entire species of plants or desertify areas. We’ve engineered an environment without their natural predators.
Culling and hunting them is different than if we caught and release neutered them.
I’m not a hunter, and I’d be fine if we just introduced wild predators like wolves (I saw a study that this was actually healthy to their population).
Exactly, it’s not simple, hence the need for better, more ethical solutions. I don’t know the best solution, I’m not an expert on deer or ecosystems, but I think we can do better than killing till the problem goes away
So you’re okay with their suggestion of introducing wolves to help control the deer population? (which for the record, I’m not denying is genuinely a promising strategy to help with the problem)
But if you are, then how is that not also “unnecessary killing”? The end result is essentially the same thing, dead deer that become food for another specie.
It’s always bothering me when people don’t have more empathy towards their fellow humans than to other spices.
Yeah, I mean when you look at how much suffering humans cause despite all our intelligence it’s not that hard to be jaded. Even then, at least for me, it’s a lot easier to empathize with humans than other species. It’s also a lot easier for me to empathize with humans in my social circles than humans I don’t know.
it bothers me when people arbitrarily limit who they’ll empathize with.
There are plenty of programs out there to capture and spay/neuter feral cats.
Exactly