- cross-posted to:
- automotive@discuss.tchncs.de
- cross-posted to:
- automotive@discuss.tchncs.de
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I hate when companies say they’re “forced” to do layoffs. Elon could easily pay six figure salaries to 14,000 people for over a decade before he noticed even the slightest change to his net worth. What they really mean is that by upending the lives of 14,000 families, they’re hoping to get a temporary bump in the stock price this quarter so they can buy another yacht.
I really find the hatred of layoffs some of the most nonsensical criticism of capitalism.
If you are going to pay people for doing nothing useful, because your company no longer needs their work, why make them go to work? You can save their time and your money (office costs, taxes, administration, etc.) if you just give them the money after you fire them.
I think it’s more so that the corporate culture lately is extremely short-sighted and makes lay-offs in incredibly dumb ways (i.e. you can see their future half-year problems). Which many times will need to be re-hired by paying lots of money to idiotic recruiters to hire new people (because the older folks have switched ship and are not coming back) and train them. Lots of instability caused by extremely poor management (who get payed a lot even though they make stupid decisions).
It’s not a one-off, and it keeps happening.
I mean, what you say is true although I suspect it is a lot less common than the headlines would lead you to believe. Its probably just selection bias since news don’t report on companies running well.
Either way, that is not what the comment I was reacting to is saying.
Indeed… top comment is a bit more… emotional. I just try to perceive where the general emotion is coming from (because it is definitely shared by many)
Avoid Musk at all costs.
It would be embarassing to drive a Tesla today, especially for the demographic that would buy these EVs.
You see one driving and you know the driver is a uninformed douchebag.
TBF they could have bought it before we knew he was crazy.
15th July 2018
That’s when Musk called a diver who’d just rescued a bunch of kids, a paedophile after he showed up his magical cave diving robot that wouldn’t fit in the cave.
Engineers have been calling him out for a decade, it’s just people told us “shut up, nerd! Elon is smarter than all of you! You are just jealous!”
It was honestly hard to parse how disgruntled workers from legitimate complainants. The diver comment was his Mask Off moment.
TBF, Musk’s saneness should have no impact on your car-buying decisions.
Get the best product for the money you spend.
So, as before, no Tesla.
If I had to buy a new car today, I’d get a Rivian.
But personally, I’m holding out for Aptera. A car so exceptionally efficient that - for my needs - may never need to be plugged in? Yes, please.
I’ve been following the Aptera since the 00’s So happy to see them actually getting to market.
An Aptera doesn’t fit my needs if I only have one vehicle. I’m also following Edison Motors for their pickup truck conversions. As a farmer, I do have a legitimate need for a good pickup/flatbed truck and I have an old Scottsdale without an engine. Diesel/Ev hybrid fueled by biodiesel would be so cool. Modern drive train, manual windows and no spyware.
I hear about use-cases like yours constantly. I feel like auto-makers are really dropping the ball by not offering “low-tech” electric vehicles. Not only would that result in lower price points, but it appeals to people who don’t want or don’t trust all the high-tech bells and whistles being crammed into EVs these days.
It’s clear that there is a huge market for people who just want an old-school car that runs on batteries, and not an overpriced luxury iPhone on wheels.
Cause they don’t want to ship simple, fixable vehicles without spyware. Even the windshields are designed to pull “maximum value” from their users.
Edison Motors is wisely only making Semi and Pickup truck conversions with end user fixability in mind, but they have considered making Jeep kits down the road. There are also people pulling Tesla transaxles and putting them in better cars and you can buy the Ford Mustang Mach-E transaxle as a crate motor. BTW, why the fuck is something that’s called a Mustang listed as an SUV?
There’s a lot of really cool options for DIY EVs that are way better then the upbuilt golfcart motors people use to have to settle for.
Most people (especially outside the US) don’t give a fuck about Elon and his politics, at the end of the day they’ll buy the car which fits their needs the most within the price range they can afford. And yeah Teslas have issues but my friends who own one are very happy with them.
my friends who own one are very happy with them.
That’s because the people who don’t like them get rid of them. Their reviews are not good when compared to other vehicles in the same category. The Cybertruck is last in class (not first, last) in all categories except acceleration.
Well I don’t know/care, I’m not really interested in cars (and I for one wouldn’t buy a Tesla due to Elon Musk’s assholery alone). But my friends are, and after thoroughly evaluating the options available here in France they went with Tesla, and they don’t seem to regret it.
That’s dumb? You can get BMWs or Mercedes Benzes in Europe pretty easily if you want a luxury car. For BMW, you can get an electric i3 for pretty cheap ($15K in the US) or an i4 if you want a newer electric car.
Tesla is firing people for a reason. They are selling fewer cars because the competition is better.
i3 is too small, i4 is too expensive to get the eco bonus so it’s much more expensive than the model 3.
But OK I get it, you hate Tesla and you’re an expert in the French car market, I’ll be sure to let them know.
But Tesla is priced like a luxury car? My point is, you can get everything you want better with other manufacturers. Unless you mainly want to suck off Elon.
I very much dislike Elon, but I have a Model 3 and it was definitely the best option for the price. It was $25K used, much less than an i4 and I like the overall design much better, but I know a lot of people don’t like it which is fine. Have you owned an EV? The charging infrastructure in the US for Teslas is light years ahead of the competition, and you know that’s true when the other manufacturers, that you say are better, are switching charging ports and trying to get access to the supercharger network. Let’s not pretend like you can get EVERYTHING you want better, and that Tesla has done nothing to improve the overall state of EVs. The company would undoubtedly be looked at much differently if Elon were not at the helm, he draws way too much attention and is a terrible human being overall. And no, I’m not attributing anything positive about the company or the cars to Elon, I don’t think he has done shit. I give all of the credit to the actual engineers.
You clearly have no clue about car prices in France.
Embarrassing? Tesla single handedly showed an alternative to oil-based vehicles with an absolutely superior machine. I put 200,000 miles on my Tesla model 3 driving it off road to some of the most remote places in the US, and it never broke a sweat. It was the first car that could keep up with my adventure spirit. If a traditional manufacturer made this machine it would have cost $300,000 for what it can do.
While you are here buying in to big oil brain washing, this company has single handedly done more in the war against climate change, and dystopian hellscape oil/based economies like Saudi Arabia, than any other company in history.
Musk might be autistic and have a lot of dumb ideas he can’t keep contained but he undeniably has a better vision for what technology the public has access to. A single person’s personality is such a dumb reason to support oil companies, with the blood of millions on their hands, and possibly the end of this planet. Keep drinking the koolaide, though!
No they didn’t. No one here loves big oil. There are other companies that make better EVs.
Tesla single handedly showed an alternative to oil-based vehicles with an absolutely superior machine.
EVs were around before Tesla. Tesla just made them cool because dudebros got suckered into investing in it.
There’s a documentary called Who Killed the Electric Car disproving your point https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk
EVs were trash before Tesla. It was just virtue signaling and controlled opposition. Tesla made them a real alternative to ICE cars.
The sheer ableism of assuming Musk is autistic just because he’s a Nazi asshole… What a insult to autistic people.
Musk is absolutely autistic.
You got anything to back that up, besides speculation and ableism?
Elon Musk publicly disclosed he has asperger’s syndrome…
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57045770
https://www.newsweek.com/asperger-syndrome-elon-musk-autism-spectrum-disorder-1590043
https://psychcentral.com/autism/elon-musk-opened-up-about-autism-heres-what-we-learned#diagnosis
Thanks for that. Sorry for being so aggressive there. I had just come from a discussion on another site where someone tried to insult Musk by calling him autistic because of the way he walks, and I carried some of that anger over here.
Hey, no worries. It happens to the best of us, and it’s really big of you to admit that and recognize it in yourself.
I wasn’t saying he is autistic as an insult (I’m also a bit neurodivergent), more recognizing his disabilities and acknowledging that his masking may result in some socially unacceptable characteristics. It is also really easy to be misunderstood and then find yourself in a socially difficult quagmire. It happens to me all the time and I don’t have a billion eyeballs watching my every move. I summarize this by calling it “dumb”, which again, I don’t mean as insulting.
I do think when you create something as valuable as something like Tesla, you should be held to a higher standard and not jeopardize the mission as a public figure being controversial. If you can’t contain that, then you hire people to lead the company who can.
Anyway, I appreciate you. Thanks for the civility. We are all on this planet growing together, I much prefer being friendly, patient, and understanding.
I mean he said he’s on the spectrum when he hosted SNL two years ago. Given his track record that probably means he isn’t, but don’t worry it’s coming in the next firmware update.
Speaking of ableism…
I’m just making fun of him for constantly promising features that don’t exist, then saying they’ll come in a future update when it ships without them. À la the full self driving demo in 2016 that turned out to be fake.
Tesla single handedly showed an alternative to oil-based vehicles with an absolutely superior machine.
Keep drinking the koolaide, though!
lol
If you could have stopped at the first paragraph I would have upvoted you. I actually had to remove my upvote. Why did you feel it was so important to attack a stranger on the internet, it destroyed the credibility of your initial statement?
The truth does not care for your upvotes, and my credibility is absolutely intact. Check with a more objective thinking device and verify reality.
An objective, fact-based thinking devices (ChatGPT4) disagree with you. Here is my prompt and its response, which you can independently verify:
I am reading a comment thread on the internet. I need your opinion. First the thread:
Comment 1:
Avoid Musk at all costs.It would be embarassing to drive a Tesla today, especially for the demographic that would buy these EVs.You see one driving and you know the driver is a uninformed douchebag.
⸻
Commentor reply:
Embarrassing? Tesla single handedly showed an alternative to oil-based vehicles with an absolutely superior machine. I put 200,000 miles on my Tesla model 3 driving it off road to some of the most remote places in the US, and it never broke a sweat. It was the first car that could keep up with my adventure spirit. If a traditional manufacturer made this machine it would have cost $300,000 for what it can do.While you are here buying in to big oil brain washing, this company has single handedly done more in the war against climate change, and dystopian hellscape oil/based economies like Saudi Arabia, than any other company in history.Musk might be autistic and have a lot of dumb ideas he can’t keep contained but he undeniably has a better vision for what technology the public has access to. A single person’s personality is such a dumb reason to support oil companies, with the blood of millions on their hands, and possibly the end of this planet. Keep drinking the koolaide, though!
⸻
Who is correct here objectively speaking? Which view seems accurate and credible?
ChatGPT4:
The comments you’ve shared express strong opinions and biases towards Tesla and Elon Musk, highlighting the polarizing nature of public figures and innovative companies.The first comment criticizes Tesla and its customers, labeling them as “uninformed.” This viewpoint seems to focus more on social perception and the controversial aspects of Elon Musk’s public persona rather than the technical or environmental merits of Tesla vehicles. The argument lacks specific factual support and primarily uses ad hominem attacks, which weakens its credibility.The second comment provides a counterpoint, emphasizing the positive impacts of Tesla on the automotive industry, particularly its role in popularizing electric vehicles (EVs) and challenging traditional automotive and oil industries. This commenter shares personal experiences with the Tesla Model 3, attesting to its performance and reliability, which adds a layer of anecdotal evidence to their argument. They also acknowledge Musk’s personality and controversial ideas but argue that these should not overshadow the technological and environmental contributions of his company.Objectively, the second commenter provides a more fact-based perspective by citing specific contributions of Tesla to the automotive industry and environmental efforts. Their argument is bolstered by personal experience and a broader view of the company’s impact on global issues like climate change and economic structures reliant on oil.In conclusion, the second comment appears more accurate and credible based on the use of specific examples and a focus on substantial issues rather than personal attacks.
“Truth doesn’t care”…proceeds to ask GPT4 their opinion as if AI is some sort of judge. Judge then proceeds to provide opinion on the arguments presented and not the contents therein. Asks GPT4 to independently verify, it doesn’t. Instead claims first poster of an Adhom and says that limits credibility, but insists replies anecdotes make him more right. But doesn’t mention replies ad hom.
Yeah…okay.
This!
While we don’t have an exact percentage, “more than 10%” means at least 14,000 employees will be laid off
Surprisingly I thought it would be a bigger number.
Rumors are 20% actually.
There are numerous topics over on Reddit talking about “laid off this morning”. There was no warning, they just got fired over the weekend.
What looks bad is the absolute urgency and callousness of this event. In fact, there are various laws at the state level (ex: California’s WARN laws: https://edd.ca.gov/en/jobs_and_training/layoff_services_warn), that require 60-days notice before a mass firing. So this “weekend layoff” is straight up illegal in some areas of the country.
Business have a ton of precedent these last few years that following laws isn’t cost effective. The fine is far cheaper.
The “fine” is backpay for all the employees for months.
Its cheaper to not pay lawyers and just do the right thing, rather than fight it and backpay all of the laid off workers anyway. WARN laws are serious, and have serious precedent. You ain’t gonna win vs them in court.
Collect interest on the pay they withhold, pay out eventually and probably still come out ahead. If the fine is just paying what’s owed, that’s not a fine that’s simply restitution. I don’t know anything about WARN but i have seen week of layoffs, no notice layoffs, no notice furloughs and a plethora of other, probably illegal shit in upstate NY in a lot of mfg facilities.
Maybe the layoffs aren’t in California?
That’s never deterred Musk
Usually you just tell them they are employed for 60 more days but are not required to come to work or do any work. Are the people on Reddit saying they are getting no more pay?
I don’t think that law means what you think it means. They can just give you 60 days severance, they are not required to have you keep working.
Also, I would not be surprised if they extensively use contractors, which don’t have the same protections.
Then again, this is Musk, who reneged on his Twitter severance plans and got sued. So he very well could be trying to pull some bullshit again.
I don’t think that law means what you think it means. They can just give you 60 days severance, they are not required to have you keep working.
These aren’t programmers where severance is better (you don’t want a toxic programmer messing up your codebase). These are factory workers who would have been productive if they kept working.
IE: This is a stealth factory idle. Likely because of how much the sales have dropped for Tesla. This is IMO very bad news for what Tesla expects in the near future for their sales / revenues / profits.
Cutting contractors doesn’t count as a “layoff”. So in addition to cutting FTEs, there could be a massive number of contractors being cut loose additionally.
But didn’t you hear they’re rolling out robo taxis by August 🙉
“We have full self driving TODAY, this is something we can do TODAY!” - Elon Musk 2017
Still isn’t here in 2024…
there’s nobody left to buy him out so he’s finally going to have to figure out what step 2 is
If I was Musk, I honestly wouldn’t give a shit at this point.
He’s wealthier than any of you can ever hope to be. I’m sure if his businesses fail he can still live a better life than any of you, too.
It’s laughable how you say “you” rather than “us or we”, cause you aren’t making emerald trust fund baby money either, friendo.
Clearly he doesn’t give a shit. That’s the point. He can ruin 14,000 people’s lives and go on taking his private jet from city to city to skip traffic.
All he has is more money. And he still bitches and moans on Twitter all day (the site he paid 44 BILLION for haha). He’s not better or happier.
Beginning of the end.
That should be useful for the UAW’s effort to organize Tesla in the US.
Another bump on the way down that is leaving Elmo in place.
Tesla board, wake up.
If not for Elon, I probably would have ended up with a Tesla for my recent EV purchase.
I feel sorry for these workers. I wish Elon wasn’t such a piece of shit.
Folks waking up to the ugliness
If you work for Musk or Bezos, you have to know your job is not secure.
