Transcription for the blind: Storefront with two paper signs taped to the window. Left sign says "Since the supreme court had ruled that businesses can discriminate…NO SALES TO TRUMP SUPPORTERS. Right sign says “We only sell to churches that fly the pride flag” and has an illustrated image of a pride flag and a church.
-Transcription done by a human volunteer. Let me know how I can do better.
Good ai human not robot
*hand out treats
Good human
Good human
Thanks dude. You make the world a better place.
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Thank you, I’m not blind but I appreciate you helping out others
good
bothuman
This was always legal. I’m an attorney, I do not represent any Trump supporters. If a client says something favorable about trump, they are no longer my client. They are just too stupid, judgement too poor, don’t understand difference between reality and fantasy. They make the absolute worst clients.
I’m not sure about discrimination against customers based on ideology, but I’m pretty sure you can’t discriminate against customers based on protected class (sex, race, orientation, etc.) What this supreme court case does (IIUC) is that companies are now allowed to not provide services to protected classes if those services constitute speech. So if you are a restaurant owner, or a hotel, you still can’t refuse a gay couple, if you are a cake designer, you can’t refuse to make a cake, but you can refuse to do anything remotely gay-related to that cake, if you are a web designer, you can refuse to make something altogether because the government can’t restrict or compel speech (and graphic design is speech).
The problem is it is vague imo. Baking a cake could be speech to this court
Baking the cake is definitely not speech ( although I appreciate your point about this Court interpreting it that way).
However, decorating the cake could reasonably be construed as speech, especially if there is text, logos, etc in the decoration.
Gotcha, yeah I agree. I personally don’t think a website designer building something for a client is either. But we live in a dystopia right now. Hope you are doing well this evening.
Money is speech, right? Does that make the ramifications of this decision go a lot farther? I don’t see how yet, but it seems like this ruling may have broad impacts when people start getting creative with it…
Bold assuming the corrupted six ever used anything close to consistency to inform their rulings.
I mean, there’s one thing that’s pretty consistent: they’ll do whatever their wealthy backers want them to do.
This is a problem with the US legal system. Every decision is a precedent, no matter how specific it is.
Well, Roe v Wade set a precedent, which was then reverted ~50 years later, so I’m not sure how much precedents apply to the supreme court (it definitely applies to lower courts tho)
This is how common law everywhere that England colonized works. It’s not endemic to the US.
…I feel like you’ve got some stories you could be sharing
If they’re trump supporters… they probably wouldn’t be paying you anyway.
Nah. Many of them have stumbled their way into money. Lots of trade people and small businesses, which makes up my typical clientele, others are sons and daughters of second or third generation union humps. Many grew up with one working parent being able to provide and that union parent has one or two pensions and is still hustling jobs. So, many of them can afford a lawyer. They are unfailingly whiney babies who are an awful combination of privileged existence and self agrandizement. I blame social media for validating their most half-baked ideas and emotional reactions.
I’m sure they can afford a lawyer. I was more referring to the link between being a Trump supporter and Trump’s own … habit of not paying his lawyers.
trump griftes any monies left
I mean, yeah, at that point they’re just a big fat liability.
This guy laws
And they learned it from watching Trump.
Quick side note: you are within your rights to refuse service based on political affiliation full stop – it’s not protected under the equal protections clause.
That being said, the issue is not about denying service full-stop, but the right to refuse expression of values you find to be wrong. Believe it or not, these cases are important for everyone and guarantees that the state can’t force you to create messaging in support of (i.e. endorse, which is a form of speech) something you disagree with.
It’s not granting the right to discriminate. It’s protecting your first amendment right to not be compelled to engage in speech you disagree with.
For example, say I go to a bakery run by devout Muslims and request a cake that depicts a cross with the phrase “only through Jesus may you find eternal life” underneath. That baker may be uncomfortable with the idea of creating that design as it not only goes against their own sincerely held beliefs, but may conflict with some negative views they may hold of Christians or Jesus (or even the particular denomination of the customer).
That Muslim baker has every right to refuse the design of the cake on free speech grounds. Religion is a protected class in the equal protections clause, so the Christian may feel like they’re being discriminated against, but it’s the message (which is considered to be speech) and not the individual being a Christian causing the issue.
That Muslim baker cannot blanket-refuse any Christians from buying any cakes. If that Christian customer instead asks for a blank cake that they’ll decorate themselves, the baker must sell it to them or else they are violating the equal protections clause. In that case, service is being refused based on the traits of the customer rather than on the particular message being expressed on the cake.
It’s silly and I think people would be better off just accepting the work and taking the money. If I was aware of a business that made cakes, websites, whatever – but refused certain designs based on their personal views, I would simply discontinue any further support of them. I’d prefer a business who puts their own shit aside and serves whomever wants to pay them… but to compel them to suck it up and either compromise on their views or close up shop is directly contradictory to one of the most important rights we recognize here – to speak freely and without cohersion from the state.
The business owner isn’t doing anything wrong with their signs, but they’re completely missing the point of the decision and comes off as a bit silly.
What you described was not the actual outcome of the ruling.
The wedding website designer did not give them a website with no mention of being gay, that they could fill in themselves. The website designer was allowed to fully refuse them any kind of website at all. Just like refusing a blank wedding cake because the couple is gay.
The justification of the decision was not in good faith. It stepped away over the bounds of protecting against compelled speech. And they deserve to feel the consequences.
The whole goddamn case was not in good faith.
The supposed customer for a gay wedding website turned out to actually be a married straight dude.
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If the wedding designer has a “blank wedding site” package premade and refused to sell it to them then I don’t think that’s right. But if all of the websites are bespoke designs where the designer must create something for the couple, it’s fuzzy.
Personally, I don’t know. There is, and should be, a line between personal life and work life. But depending on what you do for a living, the line can be a thin one or a thick one.
For example, if I churn out hundreds of identical 3D printed characters and sell them at an open-air market, I shouldn’t be allowed to single out a customer and refuse business just because I don’t like the look of them. But if I’m a graphic artist, I shouldn’t be compelled to draw something that I find objectionable. Eg: I might be a woman who has been sexually abused in the past, and someone wants a sexually graphic depictions of a sexual assault (like the Guns ‘N’ Roses “Appetite for Destruction” cover).
Those examples are easy to comprehend because they’re extremes. The difficulty in interpreting the outcome of the case is trying to bring the examples closer to the center.
Can you refuse to sell handpainted greetings to someone you don’t like? No. It doesn’t matter that it’s a creative endeavour. If you created the product without coercion, and are now selling them at a stall in your local town, it’s not ok to refuse a simple transaction because you don’t like the buyer. What if you also offer a service of writing a message in fancy calligraphy on the inside? Can you refuse to write something you find objectionable? I think so.
I don’t think it comes down to who your customer is. I think it comes down to what you’re being asked to do.
Edit: lol, what a typo. Thanks swype keyboard!
Someone else compared being gay to being racist, and now you’re comparing being gay to sexual assault.
These are disingenuous comparisons at best, dangerously homophobic at worst.
WAT. I was giving extreme examples to illustrate that personal opinions sometimes have zero effect on your work, and sometimes they really really affect your work. And I specifically called out the fact that they were extreme examples:
Those examples are easy to comprehend because they’re extremes.
How the hell was that comparing being gay to sexual assault? How come you didn’t use the other example and accuse me of comparing being gay to 3d printing?
A sensible and reasonable analogy would be interracial marriage.
Should racist wedding business owners be able to refuse serving interracial marriages, on the basis of they don’t believe in interracial marriage?
This sets out my own thoughts on the situation as well. Thanks for posting.
In theory yes, but what’s going to happen now, is 2 obviously gay men will go to that Muslim baker and ask for blank cake they will decorate themselves and Muslim will ask them to leave.
And if that was the case and they wanted to pursue their legal options, they could sue the baker.
They could. And theyll probably have too. The problem with this law is it really sets the tone and reinforces peoples shitty views.
I definitely agree that stupid people are stupid, and they will either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstand the ruling and skew it to their messed up views. It doesn’t make SCOTUS wrong in this case though.
Very well put
“If that Christian customer instead asks for a blank cake that they’ll decorate themselves, the baker must sell it to them or else they are violating the equal protections clause.”
This is an issue too though. The only person who can enforce the requirement that the Muslim Baker sell the cake is the government and the only way the government can force someone to work is through force. What you end up with is the government using threat of force to require someone to work. Which is slavery at its core. Anyone should have the right to refuse work if they don’t want to.
Nope, because then you have people saying “I won’t sell to blacks, if you force me sell them things I made it’s slavery”. And they aren’t being forced to work, they are being forced to operate under the parameters our society agreed to (via lawmaking). The baker can quit, he’s not forced to work there. The shop owner can close up shop, he’s not forced to run that business. But if the owner wants to run that business they have to follow the laws of the land which say you will serve the public, and that means all of the public.
A Baker should be able to refuse to bake a cake he doesn’t want to make. He shouldn’t even have to give a reason. Anything less than that is by definition forced labor.
This is the best take I’ve seen in this thread so far. It’s an issue of compelled speech, not of this or that demographic or ideology of the client or service. I’m not trying to dog whistle here, I hate that any business would exercise this in a hateful way, but another example of the reverse would be compelling a black-owned bakery to write an awful racist message on a cake. Obviously no person should be compelled to say what they don’t believe, regardless of the level of asshattery they dabble in.
A lot of shitty analogies abound.
How about these ones:
Is it ok to refuse service to a mixed race couple getting married?
Is it ok to refuse service to a couple, both of whom are black who are getting married?
I think these examples are much closer to the analogies people are coming up with in this thread. Or do you think being gay is an ideology? Is being gay a religion? Is being gay like being a racist?
Or is being gay something that a person is born as? If so isn’t this a lot like being refused service because of race?
The question THIS LAW interacts with is the CONTENT of the message. If you’re providing tables for a wedding this law wouldn’t protect you. If you were asked to write something specific for the wedding and the content of the request is antithetical to your beliefs, this law would protect you, if you could show that. Not a lawyer, but that’s how I read it.
Now. Is it “right” to do so? I would say in absolutely no universe. It’s morally wrong, it undermines our liberal society, and I have no tolerance for it. My point is that this particular law isn’t about whether someone is a Christian, their race, or sexuality. This decision wouldn’t protect me from writing some basic software for a nazi (others might) but it DOES protect me from building a website supporting them, or writing prose related to nazism, or anything else which would be CLEARLY against what I believe. Please DON’T read that I’m saying that being a nazi is the same as being homosexual, it isn’t, I’m not, fuck nazis.
To get back to your question: as I read this decision, a cake maker could potentially be compelled to make a cake for an interracial couple, but they might not be compelled to make a cake with something like “interracial is the only way to go”
This all sounds like the staff using religion as an excuse to discriminate against gay people. Doesn’t seem all that Christian to me, and in fact it seems like they’re taking Our Lord’s Name in vain by using it to justify their hateful actions.
But maybe they don’t follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and don’t follow the Commandments. Even if that’s the case, the business is responsible for ensuring that customers aren’t discriminated against by staff. If the business owners aren’t up to meeting that standard, then they shouldn’t be trying to run a business.
You’re right, and it doesn’t to me either, and I feel that it’s wrong, and I wouldn’t go and get a cake made with someone I know does this. I also think that you and I would agree on more than not. I’ll also add that I don’t have a dog in the religion debate here. But I still feel very strongly that in a free society it is their right not not be compelled to write something which directly contradicts their belief. I’ll need to think about this more in general, I might end up changing my mind on it, but at least for right now the right to not have to say something you don’t believe feels important to me. Let me ask you this, if an atheist baker were asked to write “Jesus is Lord” on a cake and said no, would you take issue with that? I wouldn’t; I’d argue that is a very clean first amendment right, and an important part of living in a liberal society. I also would go as far as to say that isn’t even intolerance from the atheist, it’s simply them believing something.
To your second point, while I agree that a business owner should not discriminate against a particular demographic, I’m not sure I’d go all out on any time someone says this they’re discriminating. Every religion and value system has prohibitions, and few of them are aligned. It’s possible to respectfully decline to do something as it directly contradicts your beliefs. Now if your beliefs are discriminatory, that’s a different and more complex question entirely. I’m not sure what to think about that case.
To me there needs to be a distinction between a business and a person. Sure maybe a person can’t be compelled to do something against their beliefs, but a business can’t claim to have beliefs and therefore can be compelled to do whatever the law requires.
And claiming religious beliefs isn’t a card you can lay down anytime you want to get out of your responsibilities. I mean if I claim that paying taxes is against my religious beliefs do you think the government shouldn’t be able to compel me to pay taxes simply because it’s against my religious beliefs?
There’s always an element of common sense judgement needed in the law which is why the people that do that are called Judges. So if in our best judgement these people simply don’t like gay people and in our judgement they’re just using religion as a way to trick people into thinking they’re motives are based in religion and not based off on their prejudice, then what is the decision? To go along with their trickery that’s using religion as an excuse? Or just tell them their arguments about religion is bullshitt and they have to get over their dislike of gay people and follow the law?
The problem here is members of Supreme court are willing to abdicate their responsibility to use judgement and go along with the obvious trickery because they share the baker’s dislike for gay people.
I think that I agree with you in general on your first point. A business isn’t a person, it doesn’t have a religion, it can’t have an opinion on people. But we’re talking about a small business. If someone is running a web design company, they don’t have a huge staff, they’re just one person, so their individual convictions are at play, don’t you think?
The example you give in your second point isn’t quite congruent with this case, taxes are not speech. We’re talking about speech. Now I have a personal conviction that the USA shouldn’t be spending nearly so much on the military, but unfortunately for me, my taxes, and many people around the world, I don’t have a say in the matter. If someone said something like “I don’t want to pay this tax because it’s being spent on something antithetical to my religious belief” even there, it’s not speech.
I don’t think it makes sense to compare being gay to being racist.
Alright I’m sorry, I don’t either. Which is actually why I pointed out specifically that I hate that anyone would use this in a hateful way. I’m surprised you think that I do think that it’s the same. Is there something in my comment which indicates that I believe that?
You reached for a completely non sequitur analogy.
compelling a black-owned bakery to write an awful racist message on a cake
It’s not at all like that. If you’re in the business of making cakes, and if you make cakes that have people’s names on them for their weddings, and then you refuse a cake that looks like all the other cakes to a couple because you don’t approve of which two consenting adults want their names on the goddamn cake because you just think exactly only one peen should be named in their relationship, that is just bigoted bullshit, and yes, this free country should stamp that shit out and not apologize for it, and we should all burn sparklers and celebrate that this free country offers us all the same freedom to buy a cake from the already-putting-peoples-names-on-wedding-cakes baker. There is no analog there for hateful messages on cakes whatsoever.
Edit: And if I missed your point entirely, I apologize. I’m not trying to be combative with anyone, but I am trying to stop what seems like people rationalizing this situation as having anything to do with free speech. I emphatically believe that it is a shitty excuse to apologize for a clearly biased agenda from the people who wormed their way into the US Supreme Court.
Yeah sorry, a couple of people sound like they think I meant that, I must not have articulated myself well.
If this decision protects that cake maker from doing so, then I would worry about it. Imagining EVERY cake were the same, obviously that would be wrong. I’m just trying to say that it seems like the law has more to do with the content of the message. If a couple wanted a cake saying “only gay sex” or something similarly funny, or a straight couple wanted a cake saying “all gays are bad”, I would feel that while we don’t need to be tolerant of the former business person, or the latter client, neither business person should be compelled to write the message on the cake. In the former case, they should be compelled to make a blank or similar cake with no message, simply not compelled to write the message.
Again, I’m not a legal expert so if I’m misreading the decision, that’s a different story.
“If that Christian customer instead asks for a blank cake that they’ll decorate themselves, the baker must sell it to them or else they are violating the equal protections clause.”
This is an issue too though. The only person who can enforce the requirement that the Muslim Baker sell the cake is the government and the only way the government can force someone to work is through force. What you end up with is the government using threat of force to require someone to work. Which is slavery at its core. Anyone should have the right to refuse work if they don’t want to.
That’s not what equal protections meant though. It just meant you can’t refuse to serve a customer based on their protected statuses like religion or sexual orientation.
If a church calls you to order a cake but you were planning to take time off work for a while, you could still say no. It was only a problem if you say “no, I don’t bake cakes for Christians”. That’s not slavery. You can stop working, nobody was forcing you. Just that when you do work, you can’t discriminate.
Those signs won’t stop them because they can’t read
🤣
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Wouldn’t supplying Trump come under religious belief.
Trump support is a practically a cult.
It is also definitely religious-based.
There’s a contradiction here. The Supreme Court ruled that Speech can’t be compelled, not that you could bar certain people from a business. You could decline to decorate a cake with “MAGA”, but not decline to sell a cake to a Republican, for example. What those signs are promoting is still illegal.
Forgive me, but I don’t believe political affiliation is a protected class–protected classes are the only things people can’t discriminate based on. So like, race, sex, religion are protected, but democrat/republican/green party aren’t protected. Businesses can legally discriminate against non-protected classes. It’s just usually a bad business strategy to turn customers away.
Edit: the second sign is definitely more questionable, as it does specifically discriminate based on beliefs. I was mostly focused on the first sign.
That’s something that I could get behind.
Hypocrite
Lol not even remotely
Uh yes. Example: What was all that flak when bakery’s denied service to lesbian couples. What is next deny service to whites? Hate is going full circle, hence the hypocrisy. Shit like that is only giving ammunition to the othersides.
We did a case study on this in college. The bakery didn’t refuse service to them, they told the couple that they were more than welcome to pick any of the predesigned cakes they had, but the bakery wouldn’t make a pride specific cake.
the bakery wouldn’t make a pride specific cake
LOL in other words they would not serve them.
So discrimination specifically based on a protected class.
Ok fair enough, thank you. That is not much better in regards to the bakery. It also makes this store all the worse though. Discrimination is never the answer, although many here seem to think it is. Faith in humanity is certainly not restored. Let go of the anger Padawans.
I don’t think you know what the word hypocrite means.
Striving for equality and acceptance by promoting hate towards others beliefs. Yes, I’d say that is hypocritical. What word would you use to describe them?
Hate towards beiefs is fine, and I think you’d even agree with that. Would you agree it’s bad to believe that a subset groups of people should be removed from the world? I would hope you agree that that is a bad belief and doesn’t need to be accepted.
But it’s also missing the point. Being gay isn’t a belief, it’s just the way someone is - just like race, just like gender. It’s not a belief like a political stance is.
They’re two different things and it’s not hypocritical to treat them differently.
Hate the belief not the believer.
:-)
This is just code for bigotry. I don’t have the mood necessary for politely explaining it so I won’t.
To be fair if I see a sign saying they support Trump, GOP, or anti-LGBT I keep walking on by. I have seen many places that say if you are a bigot, sexist, or racist you are not welcome here. Those are the places I spend my money at.
Exactly. A Trump sign at a business guarantees that business won’t get my money now or in the future.
There’s a large grocery store chain here that the owner was at the Jan 6th insurrection. A lot of people, including myself, refuse to shop there now.
I love this! This is amazing!
WAIT! NOT LIKE THAT THOUGH! IT WAS ONLY SUPPOSED TO KEEP THE GAYS OUT!
/s
But that’s one way to do it. No churches, no religious people, no trump supporters, no republicans allowed at all. Give them a taste of their own medicine.
This is the time when business should all be politicalised and I love it.
we need a religion that will make it so that you can’t believe in Christianity, republicans, trump supporters, etc… so that way we can claim it espouses our religious beliefs, just like that chucklefuck web designer said. This way we can be protected under this new ruling.
FSM!
Definitely been a pastafarian since MySpace days :D
Well within their right. A business can serve whoever the fuck it wants. You don’t like it, don’t shop there.
All fun and games until you can’t find anywhere to shop or buy anything.
You want to act like it’s the odd shop and you can just go next door, but just look at history. Really, take an objective look at history.
This is what Republicans wanted after all. Remember gay wedding cakes??
This is a bad take. When we, society, allow you to register as a business, we form an agreement. Part of that agreement is that you follow certain rules. We make those rules to better society.
Some rules are things like pay taxes, or don’t sell outdated food. Some rules are there to make sure anyone can shop there, without discussion.
Those rules are important because it’s very possible for a small number of business owners to make a group of people’s lives very difficult, especially out in rural areas where people don’t have a lot of options.
For a concrete example, let’s say Pfizer cures cancer. Do you want them to be able to say they won’t sell to Christians? You can’t just “go elsewhere”. But now this is allowed.
The much more dangerous part of this ruling is that the supreme Court ruled on a case where there was no standing. A lot of people don’t realize that having standing is one of the cornerstones of our legal structure. Now, in theory, any idiot could sue for any dreamed up scenario and have a much better chance of winning in court.
Society needs to codify these rules into law though otherwise bad actors break those rules. When a right wing activist supreme court removes these protections, people get hurt. But, a store like this isnt doing this to hurt people, it’s to make a statement that the far-rights own discrimination can backfire on them. It’s a form of protest and a statement, not true bigotry. Its like using the flying spaghetti monster tactic to push legislation to be more strict on religion. These people are trying ro show that regulation on business to prevent denying goods and services is important for everyone, not just minorities the the right hates.
I think I’m confused. I’m pretty sure the court case that the supreme Court just ruled on proved the opposite.
I think I’m confused. I’m pretty sure the court case that the supreme Court just ruled on proved the opposite.
You’re right in that the current state of the country does not actually reflect the ideals it professes to be based on, and this Supreme Court ruling is proof of that.
Gay. Wedding. Cakes.
Based on the Civil Rights Act of 1964, they cannot discriminate for any reason that is a protected status. However, they can makeup any reason for not serving them. That means some racist asshole could say they aren’t serving the black customer because they were rude or some other made up shit. Thankfully, your political stance is not a protected status.
Such an unbelievable ruling, but this is really the best possible response. If conservatives thought they were persecuted before…
We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason! :D
Especially racist sexist homophobic chud dipshit fascist bootlickers.
MAGA isn’t a protected class. This has always been allowed.
Honestly i would expect that a webdesigner would not wanna put up with my bullshit way earlier.
Understandable, have a nice day. but no we wanna make a scene.
