Does anyone think that there’ll ever be a simple EV car produced for market without all the extra junk found in most electric cars? Why or why not?
I don’t see the need for the infotainment dash, personal data tracking, self-driving, lack of physical buttons, and lack or reparability.
Wouldn’t it be nice to have an EV that is probably cheaper without all that forced extra stuff? Can’t we just have a simple EV that has an electric engine that is reliable, cheaper, and doesn’t have a need for constant software updates? Maybe you can work on it in your garage for the most part for simple maintenance.
I’d really like to have an EV one day but seems like they are all super expensive, have no sense of ownership like typical cars, are constantly tracking you, and are trying to shove extra features down your throat.
Most of what you’re talking about is put in ICE cars now also.
I just don’t want my car listening to my conversations and tracking where I’m going. That would be nice.
Very true. I haven’t been looking at the ICE market mostly because I drive an old car and probably will until it breaks. But that’s also very frustrating.
infotainment dash
Cars in the US are required to have rear-facing cameras. There’s going to be a screen for that. It makes sense to incorporate some things into that screen, because that’s what people expect now. Android Auto/Car Play for sure. Doesn’t have to be a touchscreen; Mazda does that right with a center console knob and buttons.
OTA software updates are a good thing, to be able to address service issues without having to go to a dealership. Previously, car computer updates had to be done with a USB stick.
electric engine that is reliable
Electric motors are super reliable and hardly ever need servicing. Batteries are getting better, but as of right now, you have to replace the entire battery pack, at great cost. I’d love to see a more modular battery configuration with replaceable cells.
self-driving
Adaptive cruise control is a game changer in every way. It makes driving so much safer. The radar is already there, might as well using it for lane departure and steering assist.
Seriously where did they get that electric motors aren’t reliable? The same motor technology has been powering diesel-electric locomotives for nearly a hundred years and those traction motors really rack up the miles…
Not to mention that the basic underlying premise of an electric motor is dead simple in comparison to an ICE.
Sure, it gets more complex the more you scale it up, etc. But at the end of the day, an eight year old can build an approximation of a motor.
Assisted driving is now evaluated as a safety feature by the certifications agency.
So unfortunately not adding adaptive cruise control, crash detection and all that would means degrading the safety rating of the car and no manufacturer would do that.
Just to clarify, I didn’t mean that electric engines weren’t reliable. It was more of a combination of things I’d like to see in an EV. And I’m all down for all those other features too! I just would like a barebones option for us poors, you know? You can have different tiered options, and maybe getting rid of all the extra features can make for a reliable cheaper car. And in a barebones model, why would you need constant OS updates? Just have the engine tuned like other things in a car like electric fuel injection. Everything else should be like clockwork.
Oh, I agree. I think the electric car market is way too “tech heavy,” certainly for my liking, but I also think that at present, reducing the amount of fiddly tech stuff wouldn’t reduce the price of the vehicle by very much. “Well, if I just pay a little bit more, I get a whole lot more.”
The battery is what costs. And people who are going to buy a cheap electric car are going to be people for whom that is their only car, so it needs to do a lot of things, including going on long trips, which means having a long range. A 100-mile range commuter car would be perfect for a whole lot of people, except for that one time they might want to go on a vacation in it, or load it up with luggage and take three or four people to the airport.
I use a Gen 1 Nissan Leaf as a commuter car that I got for $9k. The average sales price for a new vehicle in general is around $40k these days. Get a used Chevy Bolt would be my recommendation, better range than the Leaf, CCS charging, and the price is probably around $12-14k.
And in a barebones model, why would you need constant OS updates?
It’s an OS. It needs constant updates.
Open-source code is generally better, but your response time needs to be immediate. If you’re not patching, be worried.
Why? Before you answer - no it doesn’t. Cars have been doing fine by virtue of staying offline. You’re advocating for a fix to the exact problem described by OP
Then comes the question of how long will you receive support? When is EoL?
I would almost like a larger backer supporting it but obviously we don’t want most of the existing large tech companies for fear of injecting ads directly onto your display or data mining or worse.
OTA software updates are a good thing, to be able to address service issues without having to go to a dealership. Previously, car computer updates had to be done with a USB stick.
Which I would vastly prefer over someone bricking my car remotely because some intern fat-fingered a command.
I agree, I want the dumbest ev possible. I’m a software dev and the last thing I want is a touch screen attached to a car you can’t replace plus a battery you can’t replace.
Touch screens are less intuitive and more distracting than simple buttons that you can use without taking your eyes off the road. And yes! Batteries degrade pretty quickly, I hear around 4 years! If a new battery costs the same of a brand new car then it doesn’t make sense to buy EVs from a financial point of view.
Batteries do not degrade that quickly. Huge myth perpetrated by people who want the ice industry to keep running. For real proof of this you can look at the energy storage companies who are taking old batteries from Nissan leafs and Priuses from the early 2010s and see what that company rates the battery degradation at. It’s usually around 88-89%. That means in 10-14 years the battery has only degraded 10 percent. And that was old battery tech. It’s only gotten better since then.
That’s very promising to hear! I admit I don’t have the most intimate knowledge of EV’s but I looked it up and for these vehicles you’re right!
Batteries degrade pretty quickly, I hear around 4 years!
My car is 5 years old now and battery capacity is at 93% of original.
The conversion kit market might meet this desire a bit.
I suppose after market modifications are always a place to address needs not being met by manufacturers. But how likely are you going to do that if it voids your warranty, and your car needs to be maintained by authorized repair for things related to software that isn’t available to the public or other things locked into the company ecosystem?
I was excited for this car that was all about simplicity and recyclability, sacrificing speed and features: https://www.citroen.co.uk/about-citroen/concept-cars/citroen-oli.html
But of course, they will never actually make and sell it :(
This seems like its exactly on point to what I was hoping for. I really hope this is something that takes off in the EV industry!
Seconded!!
Just enough computing power to handle braking regeneration, and charging.
I’ve driven for (Cough) years, I’m good. I’ll use Waze or something if I need help.
I don’t need 8 billion sensors thanks.
You don’t need much computing power to control an EV. See all the electric scooters with absurdly dumb electronics. You just need to scale it up and use hardware matching the needs of a car. The logic can stay the exact same.
Exactly! Keep it simple!
The VW Beetle of EVs. Please
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën_Ami_(electric_vehicle)
Tons of others, too. But yes, the selection is still obviously a bit spotty. Hopefully more practical and simple (and affordable) models turn up.
Genuinely the first thought that came into my head. I want one.
What the hell. It’s so silly and cute and I want one.
I test drove one and I loved it. It was like a dodgem. It was surprisingly roomy inside, insanely responsive, light, airy, and I just had a big fucking stupid grin on my big fucking stupid face the whole time.
Looks like Canada can’t have it though. Living here is better than a warzone at least.
There’s a fun review on the aging wheels channel.
Damn surprisingly expensive and more cost cutting than expected. Surely they could have managed proper doors and panel alignment at the very least at that price point. Maybe a less silly horn button posititon and whatever is needed for it to be street legal for us/can.
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The Aptera is exactly what I want in an electric car.
This is how I know it will never be built.
They just started production. https://electrek.co/2024/04/12/first-production-body-aptera-solar-ev-san-diego-headquarters/
Aptera sounds like a cool idea. I guess recent ICE vehicles are pushing a lot of the same junk nowadays too, but I suppose the difference is you have options with ICE cars. I really hope I don’t have to buy a car anytime soon!
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Aptera for reals.
Canoo vehicles seem pretty simple in principle, but we won’t know for sure until they actually start shipping (if they ever do).
As an added bonus, I think they look bad ass.
In all technology, personal data tracking effectively subsidizes the cost of the device. They can run lower margins with a data-based revenue stream to appease shareholders. If you want privacy, you’ll have to pay more for it.
But does this option even exist?
It does in other forms of technology. It’s only a matter of time until the news shames the practice in the automotive industry enough for a manufacturer to realize that privacy has value in marketing.
I don’t know if shame will necessarily do anything unless consumers talk with their money but I really hope we’re given at least some options!
With enough shaming of the practice across the industry, a manufacturer will use privacy as a marketing tool. We just have to get past the phase of ignorance of the practice.
But does it really subsidize the cost at all? Seems like its more of an additional revenue stream than anything else. So many EVs with tracking are still expensive, so how are they meaningfully making the cars more affordable?
Why do you think Google can sell the Pixel at such a low price point? The hardware far outperforms other phones in its price range. The difference is that Google is very clear about its use of data collection, and automotive companies are still new to the game, selling it to anyone with a checkbook.
I can get behind tracking for subsidies. I think the underlying issue is the lack of choice. Coming from someone who uses a pixel, at least you have the option to flash whatever operating system you want onto the device. Despite there being some tracking even with Graphene OS, a consumer still has some control over how their phone works. I don’t think that’ll be an option for any EV that depends on software to function - especially with how hard manufacturers are locking you into their services.
You’re evading the tracking that provides the revenue offset of the slimmer margin. The more users that take that approach, the more expensive the hardware price point becomes.
I feel like this is going into different discussion but honestly, in this scenario, I don’t really believe the subsidy of tracking really means anything here.
Out of curiosity, I looked up the production cost of some phones and googles pixel 6 pro, their flagship at the time, which cost google $485 to manufacture. They retailed for $899. Where is the saving from the money they’re making from tracking? That’s just the standard pricing range for phones of that tier. Its even cheaper for the base models. Phones are not exactly a low margin device from what I see here.
Source for what I said https://www.techwalls.com/production-costs-of-smartphones/
Funny enough, if you look at other brands, their margins are huge!
Exactly. There’s a smaller profit margin on Google hardware because they know they’ll recoup the lost margin with data-driven revenue. Apple has the highest margin and most user privacy.
As for the relative size of the margin, you have to account for a lot more than the parts and manufacturing cost that you see cited. Every model has its own payroll, R&D, market testing, marketing, packaging, and distribution to pay for with that profit.
I still don’t really believe that tracking is offsetting cost all that much in these phones. Firstly, there’s no data to suggest there’s any saving is being done here. We can only speculate since nobody has release data on that point. But what we can look at is how google is pricing their phones relative to equivalent phones in their fields, which we can see is competitively priced but not too far from their competitors. If we ignore revenue from tracking, we still see significant margins and profit. That just goes to show that in this case any savings we can guess at from tracking doesn’t need to be factored in. Googles competitive pricing can be more so attributed to its sheer size, already massive pool of software developers, ability to manufactory anywhere in the world to lower costs and ability to manufacture a limited amount of models of phones at a time to reduce cost and pool resources from its other departments. Nothing to me suggests that there is anything but other market forces at play that makes google act competitively.
Price comparisons of their phones: https://www.androidauthority.com/google-pixel-prices-1147281/
Lotus is releasing an EV to the British market that is very stripped down and pretty simple as far as cars go. Problem is I don’t think they are releasing to the US market.
Hard to believe that lotus would be the one to give us a stripped down value EV. It would be kinda ironic though since without lotus, tesla wouldn’t have a body for the original roadster that got them where they are today.
I know right, I’ve never understood why manufacturers making cars for people suffering from range anxiety want to have a motor to open and close the trunk or extend the door handles. Like people can’t just lift it up or shut it by hand as we’ve done for decades?
A typical EV has 65 kWh of power. It can provide 65 thousand watts of power for a full hour. That is a massive amount of power compared to which opening a trunk is an unnoticeable rounding error.
For me it’s more about repairability and cost. I can easily replace a mechanical handle, that would probably be tougher and cheaper than an electric moving one.
Okay, I see. My 10-year-old gas car also has a powered liftgate. I hadn’t considered that to be an EV-related feature. Powered door handles are more common on EVs though.
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I think so, once infrastructure is built out and battery tech has been perfected.
As is, the market is small because you have to be a home owner (good luck charging in an apartment parking lot), and you need to bear the expense of new battery packs every few years.
I could get an EV for my next car, but when my loan is paid off, I now need to get a loan for a new car, or new batteries. A gas car might be less reliable, but it will run for several more years with minor work after the loan is paid off.
Most EVs have a 10 year / 100K miles warranty, at least in the US.
My family uses to have a leaf. Battery degradation was considered normal wear and tear, and the thing only had a reliable range of like 50 miles by the time they got rid of it.
1st gen leaf? If so, it only had like 85 mile range new, so that degradation isn’t the worst. It has air cooled batteries too, so it’s known to have probably the fastest degradation in the US market
I don’t remember which generation. The range when new was supposed to be over 100 miles though. My dad figured out fast that 100 miles was very optimistic if you had the AC or the heater on.
Then like I said, it decayed rapidly and the last year they had it, he barely made it to work, left it on a charger all day, and barely made it back.
Yeah, the leaf is notorious for not having proper battery thermal management, meaning it overheats when charging, which results in aggressive degradation. The small battery also means that you put many more full discharge-recharged cycles on the battery, which again accelerates degradation.
I bought an Hyundai Ioniq 5, with a 77.4 KWh battery, which is supposed to go 488 km (or 303 miles) of course it doesn’t quite in real life, but it seems to handle about 422 km on a full charge. That battery pack has a liquid coolant loop, and the car actively heats and cools the the battery pack to keep it’s temperature in the sweetspot, both when charging and driving. Additionally the car comes with a 8 year warranty on the battery pack, so if it loses more than 30% capacity, it will be a warranty replacement.
That being said, some of the people who bought a 2022 Ioniq 5 has tested their batteries now after 2 years of use, and even people who have almost exclusively fast charged the car are seeing less than 3% degradation over the 2 years of ownership.
Many other EVs come with 10 year warranties on the battery packs.
Tesla (which also have thermal management) has also publicised statistics that say that their vehicles have on average 12% degradation after driving 200.000 miles.
You are just spreading fud. Batteries do not wear out that quickly, and the infrastructure is here. I just recently drove through a tiny town in the middle of the mountains with less than 400 residents and they had three separate stations for charging, while they only had a single gas station in the whole town. The battery things you are saying are just completely false.
Just because someone has a different experience from you doesn’t mean they’re lying. Things are different in different places and people have a myriad of different experiences with things for a variety of reasons.
You’re not stating your experience. You said outright:
As is, the market is small because you have to be a home owner (good luck charging in an apartment parking lot),
Incorrect, but availability nearby could affect your purchase decisions, even then you can buy a plug in hybrid and get the best of both worlds.
and you need to bear the expense of new battery packs every few years.
Factually incorrect, this isn’t an opinion, it’s just spreading misinformation.
I could get an EV for my next car, but when my loan is paid off, I now need to get a loan for a new car
Wait what? Why would you need a loan for a new car after your current car is paid off? This just doesn’t make sense.
, or new batteries.
I’ve literally never heard of anyone getting a loan to buy new batteries.
A gas car might be less reliable, but it will run for several more years with minor work after the loan is paid off.
This is just factually incorrect as well. EVs statistically run longer with less maintenance than the same cost ICE car.
You might think I’m some EV fanatic, but I’m not I just hate misinformation being spread. Pretty much everything you said wasn’t opinion, it was just incorrect information. I have several ICE cars. I also have 1 EV. And I’ve done a shit-ton of research on the topic. Literally a cursory google would have shown you what you are saying is incorrect.
Availability of fast chargers is pretty much the only “opinion” based thing (and that’s still not opinion). Not having access to a charger at your home is inconsequential if you have a Walmart nearby and you bought a Hyundai or Kia or Genesis for example, because you get free fast charging for two years.
I think that makes sense. Seems to me that the EV market is mostly considered a luxury commodity at the moment and so isn’t being made as a dependable and meaningful alternative to ICE machines yet. It partly worries me though that some law initiatives are pushing for EVs but without addressing waste, and ownership and reliability that applies to dumb cars. I’ve owned my ICE car for almost 2 decades, and that’s something I’d like to see in an EV before I can make the switch.
Now that’s a fun car in a small package! Is this coming to the states?
no idea sorry
You might like Aptera
Can you imagine driving by that car through a Midwest winter? So impractical.
You don’t know that. There’s an all-wheel drive version and an off-roading package, maybe it would do fine. We’ll see 🤷♂️
