Belgium authorities are getting worried by a series of school arsons believed to be connected to newly mandatory school sessions in some parts of the country.
in the same way that everyone on the internet is an incel.
I say this as a person without a religious bone in my body — it’s very easy when slinging around /r/atheism levels of schoolboy humor to cross into xenophobia and racism.
What, practically, is the difference between, “all Muslims are pedophiles?” and "all Jews are pedophiles?’
The latter seems like something from Lauren Bobert/MTG/Palin/Alex Jones/Tucker Carlson. So why is the former acceptable?
It honestly makes me uneasy being on Lemmy seeing the frequency of which people are quick to jump to their Islamaphobic pitchforks. Weren’t we meant to be smarter than Reddit? Is it really that enlightened to suggest because someone comes from a culture they are child abusers?
Not to split hairs, but how many underage girls did Jesus marry?
I get that you can’t paint an entire religion with a single brush. People are different. People are people. But when the prophet they revere had some very questionable takes on this topic, you have to realize that religion is fine with it.
Not to split hairs, but how many underage girls did Jesus marry?
He is a fictional character and within the fiction none. However, for a traveling Rabbi he did spend a surprising amount of time with women alone. Which is interesting if you were wondering why there might have been a motivation to make him up.
If you really want to do this why not mention Solomon? How many of his concubines (sex slaves) were under 18?
How many Linux users are pedophiles? How many guitar players? How many pickleball enthusiasts?
Its a silly metric to judge a huge population on.
Can you name a single activity that hasn’t had one person commit an unrelated crime? Can anyone?
I’m not here to bat for religion, but I am here to bat against thinly-veiled racism, no matter how “enlightened” it is purported to be, or how intentional on behalf of the author.
not my point. I’m saying the argument I was originally responding to is saying that is Torvalds came out as a pedophile then all Linux users or users of products with Linux on would be pedophiles by association.
that, I assert, is ridiculous and if I was to guess at it’s motivation I would say it’s certainly Islamophobia, likely xenophobia and probably racism.
That’s not what they’re saying. It’s not a problem that their prophet was a pedophile, the problem is that they worship the prophet that was pedophile as a core element of their system of belief
I dont particularly care about being downvoted, but I am interested in this discussion. I understand why it’s happening, I’m asking nuanced questions about a topic people think is open-and-shut. I’m half expecting to be called a pedophile myself at some point. I’m not. I hope we can continue to discuss without thought-terminating cliches. I know even writing this sounds pretentious, but I just don’t want to get side tracked into emotive yelling. So, with that aside.
If a single concept is part of a structure, why does that make all users of a structure compliant with the requirements of that single concept? Or is it only Islam? If only Islam, what makes that ideology different from other religions? Or is it only religion? And if only religion, what makes religion different from other ideological structures such as language, sports, genres of music, literature, video games… or education, preferred software choice, venues … ?
Is that not exactly the same as saying D&D == Devil Worship, Call of Duty == Being A School Shooter? By the same token, isn’t “having a bank account / money” showing support for “preventing children from having chemotherapy” or “evicting babies to be homeless” as both are parts of capitalism, because, as argued here: if one part of the structure is objectionable, and people use that structure they are necessarily in support of all forms and uses of that structure.
Does the pedophilia thing apply to Picasso? If someone from a religion taints that entire religion, what are the boundaries for Picasso’s pedophilia “ruining” art? Is it art only after Picasso thats bad? Is it only paintings? It can’t be “just liking Picasso’s work makes you a pedophile” (which I think is a silly argument, but that is what is being argued here) because otherwise the Mohammed thing wouldn’t populate to other areas of religion, but in this argument it does.
What do you mean “islamophobic pitforks”? These were Islamic groups that were involved. That it’s accepted in Islamic culture to wed off a girl as soon as she bleeds is no more “islamophobic” that saying the sun can give you cancer. Not everybody will hand over their daughter to be wed as soon as she bleeds, no more than the sun will give you cancer as soon as you step into it.
Point the hypocrisy out between “she bleeds, she may be wed” and “sexual education is hypersexualisation” is not “islamophobic”.
You’re just looking to have the moral highground. “see guys, I told that dude he’s an islamophobe, where are my upvotes?”
Also, not everything is globally recognized as pedophilia. Just because in your Western (American?) brain it has been taught so, doesn’t mean that it is so to everybody.
If some members of a group are bad, all members are bad — does that mean you and I are both pedophiles for posting on Lemmy, which has had a large amount of CSAM posted to it?
I live in America, I grew up in the UK, my family are Polish and German. So presumably by the same token that all Muslims are pedophiles — I love putting the Japanese in internment camps, and injecting black people with syphilis; I love running slave plantations, committing genocide, inventing concentration camps, using concentration camps, causing famines as an act of war, and I want to invade myself because I hate the Jews — of which I am arguably a ethnic member of depending on how you interpret genealogy.
I think that’s also a flawed argument. I think culture, heritage, religion are more intertwined than you think.
Assuming you’re American,l (but if not I’m sure you can extrapolate to a relevant example from your own country) isn’t celebrating Thanksgiving equally as morally bad? Genocide of the native people in the name of Puritan Christianity?
And what of the “Holiday Season” — are you telling me you don’t celebrate Christmas or Hannukah?, because the moment you do aren’t you celebrating all the awful things that happen in those Holy Books, which if I recall is a lot of incest and rape too. Does celebrating Christmas make everyone a rapist?
No. Islam is not one single thing. The majority of those (some of whom don’t want Sex Ed in school) don’t like pedophilia either (I am not saying it is a good thing to not want Sex Ed, I think that’s stupid)
__
And before anyone says anything, yes I understand this is part of Islamic history but it doesn’t mean the whole collective of Muslims are “okay” with it, or that these people are those, that would be insane.
No, it’s not part of Islamic history, it is part of Islamic theology.
Most Muslims are Sunni, and within Sunni Islam there are 4 schools of jurisprudence. All four of these schools have deemed it acceptable to marry a girl off as soon as she is born, and hand her over to her rapist when she turns 9 years old or bleeds.
While most Muslims are anti pedophilia, the Islamic sources and clerics are not. It is a huge problem where I’m from.
Nowhere did I say “All muslims are OK with marrying girls at 10 years of age”. In Western culture, not everybody wants to have a heterosexual relationship, a Christian wedding, get a kid(s), a house, a pet, and send the man off to work while the wife stays at home. It is the dominant culture however. Pointing out that it is a thing, isn’t judgement on every single person in every single Western country worldwide.
I was pointing out hypocrisy. No need to get your panties in a bunch because in this case it involved somebody who you consider not to be in power. They are human, they can be hypocrites too. Doesn’t matter if they’re a minority in their country.
Yep, errr, I didn’t mean that you said that, but I think the person whom I originally responded to did. Thought that was clear from my comment. I also don’t think it’s fair to be judging Muslims by the teachings that are controversial among them and the rest of the world is unfair and it draws stereotypes as conclusion, potentially leading to more harm.
In Muslim countries, by the standards of the majortiy of Muslims, people don’t think Mohammed married a 9 year old or don’t think about it or simply believe the version that says she was 18 anyway, and almost no one would support laws that make the lives of pedophiles easier, the AVERAGE Muslim is horrified at anything involving sexually assaulting a minor. Islam is an umbrella term for a lot of things, but if we are going to judge Islam by how the followers interpret it (rather than the clericsd) to better understand their position and effect on this on society, the landscape changes. There are so many problematic aspects about Islam and Muslims but it doesn’t help to misrepresent them. If we really want to win this dumb culture war or religious war or identity war or whatever it is and help others, we need to do better.
Several Islamic groups have also condemned the program in a joint statement, fearing it will favor “hypersexualization” of children.
Aren’t these the same people that think marrying girls at 10 years of age is fine?
My argument is, no you can’t assume that. I am not disagreeing that Islam has pedophilia in its teaching, just that these are probably mostly either mosque imams or parents that are not particularly smart with parenting and don’t feel like kids should be “exposed” to sex ed (I am not defending them, just saying that they are probably not the select few Muslims who defend pedophilia and marry off their children). Yes, Islamic parenting has some issue with sex ed that needs to be addressed; these are misinformed parents but could easily also be stubborn stupid parents who let tradition and religion dictate their lives.
However, making that comparison doesn’t help anyone nor enable anyone to understand the situation better.
Aren’t these the same people that think marrying girls at 10 years of age is fine?
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in the same way that everyone on the internet is an incel.
I say this as a person without a religious bone in my body — it’s very easy when slinging around /r/atheism levels of schoolboy humor to cross into xenophobia and racism.
What, practically, is the difference between, “all Muslims are pedophiles?” and "all Jews are pedophiles?’
The latter seems like something from Lauren Bobert/MTG/Palin/Alex Jones/Tucker Carlson. So why is the former acceptable?
It honestly makes me uneasy being on Lemmy seeing the frequency of which people are quick to jump to their Islamaphobic pitchforks. Weren’t we meant to be smarter than Reddit? Is it really that enlightened to suggest because someone comes from a culture they are child abusers?
Not to split hairs, but how many underage girls did Jesus marry?
I get that you can’t paint an entire religion with a single brush. People are different. People are people. But when the prophet they revere had some very questionable takes on this topic, you have to realize that religion is fine with it.
The only peaceful religion is Jainism, but they are all outdated attempts at explaining the world and thus wrong.
He is a fictional character and within the fiction none. However, for a traveling Rabbi he did spend a surprising amount of time with women alone. Which is interesting if you were wondering why there might have been a motivation to make him up.
If you really want to do this why not mention Solomon? How many of his concubines (sex slaves) were under 18?
Mohammad is equally fictional, and they left that part in. It makes them even more culpable.
Muslims don’t really follow him, or a book, or scholars.
For good and ill, they are the same as other religions.
They follow their conscience and tack on religion after to justify.
How many Linux users are pedophiles? How many guitar players? How many pickleball enthusiasts?
Its a silly metric to judge a huge population on.
Can you name a single activity that hasn’t had one person commit an unrelated crime? Can anyone?
I’m not here to bat for religion, but I am here to bat against thinly-veiled racism, no matter how “enlightened” it is purported to be, or how intentional on behalf of the author.
If Linus Torvalds came out as a pedophile tomorrow, he would be actively shunned from the community. Just saying.
RMS did not do anything as bad as child fucking and look what happened to him.
No, I am not justifying what he did I am only saying it isn’t as bad as raping a kid.
not my point. I’m saying the argument I was originally responding to is saying that is Torvalds came out as a pedophile then all Linux users or users of products with Linux on would be pedophiles by association.
that, I assert, is ridiculous and if I was to guess at it’s motivation I would say it’s certainly Islamophobia, likely xenophobia and probably racism.
That’s not what they’re saying. It’s not a problem that their prophet was a pedophile, the problem is that they worship the prophet that was pedophile as a core element of their system of belief
I dont particularly care about being downvoted, but I am interested in this discussion. I understand why it’s happening, I’m asking nuanced questions about a topic people think is open-and-shut. I’m half expecting to be called a pedophile myself at some point. I’m not. I hope we can continue to discuss without thought-terminating cliches. I know even writing this sounds pretentious, but I just don’t want to get side tracked into emotive yelling. So, with that aside.
If a single concept is part of a structure, why does that make all users of a structure compliant with the requirements of that single concept? Or is it only Islam? If only Islam, what makes that ideology different from other religions? Or is it only religion? And if only religion, what makes religion different from other ideological structures such as language, sports, genres of music, literature, video games… or education, preferred software choice, venues … ?
Is that not exactly the same as saying D&D == Devil Worship, Call of Duty == Being A School Shooter? By the same token, isn’t “having a bank account / money” showing support for “preventing children from having chemotherapy” or “evicting babies to be homeless” as both are parts of capitalism, because, as argued here: if one part of the structure is objectionable, and people use that structure they are necessarily in support of all forms and uses of that structure.
Does the pedophilia thing apply to Picasso? If someone from a religion taints that entire religion, what are the boundaries for Picasso’s pedophilia “ruining” art? Is it art only after Picasso thats bad? Is it only paintings? It can’t be “just liking Picasso’s work makes you a pedophile” (which I think is a silly argument, but that is what is being argued here) because otherwise the Mohammed thing wouldn’t populate to other areas of religion, but in this argument it does.
Same question with Woody Allen and movies etc
What do you mean “islamophobic pitforks”? These were Islamic groups that were involved. That it’s accepted in Islamic culture to wed off a girl as soon as she bleeds is no more “islamophobic” that saying the sun can give you cancer. Not everybody will hand over their daughter to be wed as soon as she bleeds, no more than the sun will give you cancer as soon as you step into it.
Point the hypocrisy out between “she bleeds, she may be wed” and “sexual education is hypersexualisation” is not “islamophobic”.
You’re just looking to have the moral highground. “see guys, I told that dude he’s an islamophobe, where are my upvotes?”
Also, not everything is globally recognized as pedophilia. Just because in your Western (American?) brain it has been taught so, doesn’t mean that it is so to everybody.
If some members of a group are bad, all members are bad — does that mean you and I are both pedophiles for posting on Lemmy, which has had a large amount of CSAM posted to it?
I live in America, I grew up in the UK, my family are Polish and German. So presumably by the same token that all Muslims are pedophiles — I love putting the Japanese in internment camps, and injecting black people with syphilis; I love running slave plantations, committing genocide, inventing concentration camps, using concentration camps, causing famines as an act of war, and I want to invade myself because I hate the Jews — of which I am arguably a ethnic member of depending on how you interpret genealogy.
Doesn’t those arguments strike you as absurd?
Your argument is flawed. Heritage cannot be chosen. Following a certain religion is a choice however.
I think that’s also a flawed argument. I think culture, heritage, religion are more intertwined than you think.
Assuming you’re American,l (but if not I’m sure you can extrapolate to a relevant example from your own country) isn’t celebrating Thanksgiving equally as morally bad? Genocide of the native people in the name of Puritan Christianity?
And what of the “Holiday Season” — are you telling me you don’t celebrate Christmas or Hannukah?, because the moment you do aren’t you celebrating all the awful things that happen in those Holy Books, which if I recall is a lot of incest and rape too. Does celebrating Christmas make everyone a rapist?
And yet all those are “choices”.
No. Islam is not one single thing. The majority of those (some of whom don’t want Sex Ed in school) don’t like pedophilia either (I am not saying it is a good thing to not want Sex Ed, I think that’s stupid) __ And before anyone says anything, yes I understand this is part of Islamic history but it doesn’t mean the whole collective of Muslims are “okay” with it, or that these people are those, that would be insane.
Edit: made my pov clearer
No, it’s not part of Islamic history, it is part of Islamic theology.
Most Muslims are Sunni, and within Sunni Islam there are 4 schools of jurisprudence. All four of these schools have deemed it acceptable to marry a girl off as soon as she is born, and hand her over to her rapist when she turns 9 years old or bleeds.
While most Muslims are anti pedophilia, the Islamic sources and clerics are not. It is a huge problem where I’m from.
Okay but the answer to the main question in that comment is no, these are not the same people and it’s not easy to tell unless they explicitly say so
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Nowhere did I say “All muslims are OK with marrying girls at 10 years of age”. In Western culture, not everybody wants to have a heterosexual relationship, a Christian wedding, get a kid(s), a house, a pet, and send the man off to work while the wife stays at home. It is the dominant culture however. Pointing out that it is a thing, isn’t judgement on every single person in every single Western country worldwide.
I was pointing out hypocrisy. No need to get your panties in a bunch because in this case it involved somebody who you consider not to be in power. They are human, they can be hypocrites too. Doesn’t matter if they’re a minority in their country.
Yep, errr, I didn’t mean that you said that, but I think the person whom I originally responded to did. Thought that was clear from my comment. I also don’t think it’s fair to be judging Muslims by the teachings that are controversial among them and the rest of the world is unfair and it draws stereotypes as conclusion, potentially leading to more harm.
In Muslim countries, by the standards of the majortiy of Muslims, people don’t think Mohammed married a 9 year old or don’t think about it or simply believe the version that says she was 18 anyway, and almost no one would support laws that make the lives of pedophiles easier, the AVERAGE Muslim is horrified at anything involving sexually assaulting a minor. Islam is an umbrella term for a lot of things, but if we are going to judge Islam by how the followers interpret it (rather than the clericsd) to better understand their position and effect on this on society, the landscape changes. There are so many problematic aspects about Islam and Muslims but it doesn’t help to misrepresent them. If we really want to win this dumb culture war or religious war or identity war or whatever it is and help others, we need to do better.
Ah, I’m on kbin. For some reason, I don’t see you were responding to somebody else. Guess some context was lost.
For reference, someone said this:
My argument is, no you can’t assume that. I am not disagreeing that Islam has pedophilia in its teaching, just that these are probably mostly either mosque imams or parents that are not particularly smart with parenting and don’t feel like kids should be “exposed” to sex ed (I am not defending them, just saying that they are probably not the select few Muslims who defend pedophilia and marry off their children). Yes, Islamic parenting has some issue with sex ed that needs to be addressed; these are misinformed parents but could easily also be stubborn stupid parents who let tradition and religion dictate their lives.
However, making that comparison doesn’t help anyone nor enable anyone to understand the situation better.