is forcing people to go anywhere else actually “ethnically cleansing” though? to me, that terminology is best described as rounding everyone of a certain ethnic background up, shooting them all, burying the bodies, and then moving on to the next group.
If you want an area of land with a single ethnicity, to clean the area so it is pure for that ethnicity, that is a form of ethnic cleansing.
If you take a city and say all people who are not genetically x, or believe in religion y, must leave. That is a form of ethnic cleansing, you are cleaning the area for a specific ethnicity.
The cleansing doesn’t have to involve death, could just involve displacement, or even The ability to have children.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.
eh… using a definition that broad would mean that most asian countries are guilty of ethnic cleansing. a lot of african countries would qualify too, as would many european nations (other than, you know, germany).
The word has a very clear meaning. I’m sorry you don’t like that definition, but the reason we have dictionaries is so that we can agree on definitions.
How would you describe ethnically purifying an area?
Yes, ethnic cleansing is very common in human history… You’re right. Lots of countries are guilty of it. Doesn’t make it any less bad just common
if it’s so common that literally every country in recorded history is guilty of it (and they are if the accepted definition is so broad) then it’s just another part of governance - unworthy of discussion even.
Ethnic cleansing is unworthy of discussion, because every country has participated in it in some point in their history?
So from that standpoint, you’re happy to get ethnically cleansed, right? It shouldn’t be worth discussion, if a government agent wants to hand over your area to a different ethnicity. You wouldn’t have anything to say about that right? Your family would be cool with it too right?
And if the people who have been ethnically cleansed, try to ethnically cleanse their oppressors, that’s not newsworthy either right? So there shouldn’t have been any news reporting of hamas’s ethnic cleansing attempts? Right? It’s not newsworthy, why are we even talking about it…
Countries also execute people, we still talk about murder.
i love getting cleansed - so much so that I do it every morning (irish spring is the best soap ever). seriously though - no one here participating in this discussion/argument/whatever has ever been in even the remotest danger of being ethnically cleansed. what we say doesnt matter. you and I, any anyone who views these comments now or in years to come, we dont make policy. our opinion is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
you say “oh no, it’s bad!”. ok, great. it’s good to have a position. my position is that our positions dont matter. the news doesnt matter. you think policy makers actually care what nonsense the journalists say? queue my endlessly contagious derisive laughter.
Holy hypocrisy, Batman! You can’t just say that none of our opinions matter after spending several paragraphs over several comments sharing your own objectively wrong take. Not without showing everyone what a condescending idiot you are, at least 🤷
They got backed into a logical corner, that they couldn’t figure out how to defend, so they went into it doesn’t matter anyway rather than agree with me.
Honestly, I take it as a compliment. It means they are thinking logically, they just don’t have the personal fortitude to admit it publicly but that will come with time.
How do you wake up in the morning? If nothing you do matters. How do you continue to go on in this life?
And just because you believe nothing you do matters, doesnt mean it applies to other people.
Other people matter, I matter… I’m even going to go out on a limb and say you matter. You live, you interact with people, you’re part of a society, there’s somebody out there who would be unhappy when you die. You matter. You matter in your own little corner of the world, and your attitudes and your interactions impact the people around you. You matter.
So I’m going to continue to tell people
genocide is bad
ethnic cleansing is bad
killing people is bad
I’m going to tell everybody, and I’m going to fight with anybody who disagrees, because it matters.
Update: One more point about how small the world is, 6° of separation is a real thing, everyone is within six degrees of every other person on this planet. Meaning if you actually talk to your social networks, you will find people who have suffered horrible injustices that are directly related to you.
Any one of us could hop on an airplane right now, and end up in part of the world that is suffering terribly within a few hours.
We can actively work together, to make the world better, or we can work together to make the world worse, or we can sit idly by will other people make the world worse. I know which one of these options I prefer.
hey man if what you need to do to get you through your day is to spout off “things are bad” like some off-kilter street preacher, then knock yourself out. dont let little old me and logical argument stop you. you do you - you know how to do it best! be the best you that you can be!
biological imperatives dictate that I get up in the morning, I perform my ablutions, I consume a tasty caffeinated beverage and I go off to my job like a fine, upstanding, tax-paying, obedient citizen of this great nation because I am a proud member of it. but you’re right, nothing I do matters. all I strive to be, all I work towards, it’s this black pit of woe and despair. but… perhaps what we do matters! maybe! I mean, not a fucking chance, but maybe I’m wrong! maybe there’s a shining light and the end of this desolate existence! but i doubt it.
oh yeah, you’re totally right about that 6 degrees of separation thing - the world we live in is getting smaller each and every day. as the world condenses into the singularity (as foretold) I have indeed found myself interacting with people that have different experiences. like, we brought in a new guy at work last year - he’s from Afghanistan, he worked against his people and his nation to get in good with the Americans and when they left so did he. his insights into what’s going on over there have been really interesting. but nothing that he does is going to change what’s happening to his extended family back in the old country. theres going to be famine there - perhaps not this year but very, very soon. and there’s nothing anyone can do to prevent it. nothing really matters.
is genocide bad? yeah. does it matter if you tell people that? not really
is ethnic cleansing bad? most folks would say yes. does it matter much? nope
is it bad to kill others? even if you’ve been granted absolution by your government/religious faith/community leaders? even if the voices in your head require it? maybe. there’s not a real, concrete answer for that one. the reality is that it depends on the situation. sometimes it’s perfectly acceptable to kill others - shit, you might even get a medal and raise for it if you’re lucky!
Slavery has been an institution in almost all if not all contries at some point. That doesn’t make it any less horrible, that other atrocities are also common doesn’t make them less atrocious either.
it’s interesting to note that slavery was still a thing in some countries even up until the 1960s. in fact, the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam outlawed slavery in 1990 - 33 years ago. how progressive! how totally hip and with-the-times!
and this discussion is quibbling about a little thing like ethnic cleansing. pish posh!
Slavery is still a thing today. Slavery is still a thing in the United States even, compelling labor for prisoners is totally legal. And that’s a form of slavery
most asian countries are guilty of ethnic cleansing
Yes, they are/have been. Almost all countries have committed horrible atrocities in the past or present. That doesn’t make this not ethnic cleansing or not atrocious.
you’re right. I’m not. you gotta buck the trend, for novelty’s sake if nothing else - it keeps the squares on their toes. I find it sad that you got downvoted (not not voting means anything on this platform) for disagreeing with the herd mentality, so I didja a solid and poked the updoot button.
was a fun discussion, for a little while. it seems to have devolved into the insulting phase now. always does. it’s like… we (humanity) just cant rise above our base impulses. if someone refuses to listen, they start getting insulted - like, subconsciously some people just cant accept that their opinion is literally meaningless. it’s just… weird.
Israel wants to relocate a ethnic people. Certain group like to call that genocide because it sounds worse. Genocide actually means killing off a ethnic group. Population transfer is what Israel wants to do.
Yes, but their intentions are a forced migration or population transfer. Saying cleaning or genocide means the wholesale murder of the population. So you’re using loaded language which is weakening your argument.
Israel has made it clear they no longer welcome Palestinians along their border. They have been working with neighbors to accept them and essentially the two state option is no longer an option. That isn’t ethnic cleansing or genocide, that is a population transfer.
Now had both sides worked together and forged a diplomatic relationship the two state option would have been successful, but that didn’t occur. Both sides were continually hostile to one another. Now the Palestinian people are going to be relocated and will once again be stateless.
Forced relocation of the population, is ethnic cleansing by definition.
I’m using dictionary definitions, internationally agreed definitions, I’m using the words as their intended in international law and in common usage. I believe that strengthens my argument
That’s loaded language which is a falsification what is actually occurring.
We all agree that Israel wants to relocate the Palestinian people outside of their border. It’s agreed that Israel has no intention of murdering or enslaving the population. That’s not cleansing, that’s a forced migration or population transfer.
We all know why you want to use loaded language because it generates a image in the minds of low information people of murder and enslavement.
Ethnically cleansing an area, is ensuring an ethnicity is removed, or cleansed from the area.
I’m sorry you disagree with the dictionary, reality must be really difficult to deal with. But we have to deal with the reality we’re presented with, and not the reality we would like
I did not agree with you on either of those statements.
You haven’t brought it up, but I might as well head off the next issue, it is a genocide:
is forcing people to go anywhere else actually “ethnically cleansing” though? to me, that terminology is best described as rounding everyone of a certain ethnic background up, shooting them all, burying the bodies, and then moving on to the next group.
this isnt that.
If you want an area of land with a single ethnicity, to clean the area so it is pure for that ethnicity, that is a form of ethnic cleansing.
If you take a city and say all people who are not genetically x, or believe in religion y, must leave. That is a form of ethnic cleansing, you are cleaning the area for a specific ethnicity.
The cleansing doesn’t have to involve death, could just involve displacement, or even The ability to have children.
Ethnic cleansing wikipedia
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.
eh… using a definition that broad would mean that most asian countries are guilty of ethnic cleansing. a lot of african countries would qualify too, as would many european nations (other than, you know, germany).
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ethnic_cleansing
The word has a very clear meaning. I’m sorry you don’t like that definition, but the reason we have dictionaries is so that we can agree on definitions.
How would you describe ethnically purifying an area?
Yes, ethnic cleansing is very common in human history… You’re right. Lots of countries are guilty of it. Doesn’t make it any less bad just common
if it’s so common that literally every country in recorded history is guilty of it (and they are if the accepted definition is so broad) then it’s just another part of governance - unworthy of discussion even.
Ethnic cleansing is unworthy of discussion, because every country has participated in it in some point in their history?
So from that standpoint, you’re happy to get ethnically cleansed, right? It shouldn’t be worth discussion, if a government agent wants to hand over your area to a different ethnicity. You wouldn’t have anything to say about that right? Your family would be cool with it too right?
And if the people who have been ethnically cleansed, try to ethnically cleanse their oppressors, that’s not newsworthy either right? So there shouldn’t have been any news reporting of hamas’s ethnic cleansing attempts? Right? It’s not newsworthy, why are we even talking about it…
Countries also execute people, we still talk about murder.
i love getting cleansed - so much so that I do it every morning (irish spring is the best soap ever). seriously though - no one here participating in this discussion/argument/whatever has ever been in even the remotest danger of being ethnically cleansed. what we say doesnt matter. you and I, any anyone who views these comments now or in years to come, we dont make policy. our opinion is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
you say “oh no, it’s bad!”. ok, great. it’s good to have a position. my position is that our positions dont matter. the news doesnt matter. you think policy makers actually care what nonsense the journalists say? queue my endlessly contagious derisive laughter.
Holy hypocrisy, Batman! You can’t just say that none of our opinions matter after spending several paragraphs over several comments sharing your own objectively wrong take. Not without showing everyone what a condescending idiot you are, at least 🤷
They got backed into a logical corner, that they couldn’t figure out how to defend, so they went into it doesn’t matter anyway rather than agree with me.
Honestly, I take it as a compliment. It means they are thinking logically, they just don’t have the personal fortitude to admit it publicly but that will come with time.
How do you wake up in the morning? If nothing you do matters. How do you continue to go on in this life?
And just because you believe nothing you do matters, doesnt mean it applies to other people.
Other people matter, I matter… I’m even going to go out on a limb and say you matter. You live, you interact with people, you’re part of a society, there’s somebody out there who would be unhappy when you die. You matter. You matter in your own little corner of the world, and your attitudes and your interactions impact the people around you. You matter.
So I’m going to continue to tell people
I’m going to tell everybody, and I’m going to fight with anybody who disagrees, because it matters.
Update: One more point about how small the world is, 6° of separation is a real thing, everyone is within six degrees of every other person on this planet. Meaning if you actually talk to your social networks, you will find people who have suffered horrible injustices that are directly related to you.
Any one of us could hop on an airplane right now, and end up in part of the world that is suffering terribly within a few hours.
We can actively work together, to make the world better, or we can work together to make the world worse, or we can sit idly by will other people make the world worse. I know which one of these options I prefer.
hey man if what you need to do to get you through your day is to spout off “things are bad” like some off-kilter street preacher, then knock yourself out. dont let little old me and logical argument stop you. you do you - you know how to do it best! be the best you that you can be!
biological imperatives dictate that I get up in the morning, I perform my ablutions, I consume a tasty caffeinated beverage and I go off to my job like a fine, upstanding, tax-paying, obedient citizen of this great nation because I am a proud member of it. but you’re right, nothing I do matters. all I strive to be, all I work towards, it’s this black pit of woe and despair. but… perhaps what we do matters! maybe! I mean, not a fucking chance, but maybe I’m wrong! maybe there’s a shining light and the end of this desolate existence! but i doubt it.
oh yeah, you’re totally right about that 6 degrees of separation thing - the world we live in is getting smaller each and every day. as the world condenses into the singularity (as foretold) I have indeed found myself interacting with people that have different experiences. like, we brought in a new guy at work last year - he’s from Afghanistan, he worked against his people and his nation to get in good with the Americans and when they left so did he. his insights into what’s going on over there have been really interesting. but nothing that he does is going to change what’s happening to his extended family back in the old country. theres going to be famine there - perhaps not this year but very, very soon. and there’s nothing anyone can do to prevent it. nothing really matters.
is genocide bad? yeah. does it matter if you tell people that? not really
is ethnic cleansing bad? most folks would say yes. does it matter much? nope
is it bad to kill others? even if you’ve been granted absolution by your government/religious faith/community leaders? even if the voices in your head require it? maybe. there’s not a real, concrete answer for that one. the reality is that it depends on the situation. sometimes it’s perfectly acceptable to kill others - shit, you might even get a medal and raise for it if you’re lucky!
Slavery has been an institution in almost all if not all contries at some point. That doesn’t make it any less horrible, that other atrocities are also common doesn’t make them less atrocious either.
it’s interesting to note that slavery was still a thing in some countries even up until the 1960s. in fact, the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam outlawed slavery in 1990 - 33 years ago. how progressive! how totally hip and with-the-times!
and this discussion is quibbling about a little thing like ethnic cleansing. pish posh!
Slavery is still a thing today. Slavery is still a thing in the United States even, compelling labor for prisoners is totally legal. And that’s a form of slavery
lol that’s not slavery. prisoners on work detail get paid. slaves dont get paid. ergo, prisoners are not slaves.
Yes, they are/have been. Almost all countries have committed horrible atrocities in the past or present. That doesn’t make this not ethnic cleansing or not atrocious.
See, you’re not playing the game by the rules certain groups are playing.
you’re right. I’m not. you gotta buck the trend, for novelty’s sake if nothing else - it keeps the squares on their toes. I find it sad that you got downvoted (not not voting means anything on this platform) for disagreeing with the herd mentality, so I didja a solid and poked the updoot button.
was a fun discussion, for a little while. it seems to have devolved into the insulting phase now. always does. it’s like… we (humanity) just cant rise above our base impulses. if someone refuses to listen, they start getting insulted - like, subconsciously some people just cant accept that their opinion is literally meaningless. it’s just… weird.
anyway, toodles!
Israel wants to relocate a ethnic people. Certain group like to call that genocide because it sounds worse. Genocide actually means killing off a ethnic group. Population transfer is what Israel wants to do.
Latin: genos (race or tribe) and cide (killing).
So about that…
Wikipedia Wikipedia 2 UN Human rights watch Wiktionary
Population transfer is not equal to ethic or tribal killing. Someone at the UN needs to learn latin.
Ethnic cleansing is a component of genocide.
I think the politicians and diplomats who got together in 1948 were cognizant of that.
Consider
You ethnically cleanse a population, they resist, fighting breaks out. The ethnic cleansing moves into a pogrom, repeat… Genocide.
Yes, but their intentions are a forced migration or population transfer. Saying cleaning or genocide means the wholesale murder of the population. So you’re using loaded language which is weakening your argument.
Israel has made it clear they no longer welcome Palestinians along their border. They have been working with neighbors to accept them and essentially the two state option is no longer an option. That isn’t ethnic cleansing or genocide, that is a population transfer.
Now had both sides worked together and forged a diplomatic relationship the two state option would have been successful, but that didn’t occur. Both sides were continually hostile to one another. Now the Palestinian people are going to be relocated and will once again be stateless.
ethnic cleansing Wiktionary
The mass expulsion or killing of people belonging to one ethnic group by those of another.
It seems we’re using different definitions of ethnic cleansing. I present to you the dictionary and Wikipedia.
Wikipedia
Forced relocation of the population, is ethnic cleansing by definition.
I’m using dictionary definitions, internationally agreed definitions, I’m using the words as their intended in international law and in common usage. I believe that strengthens my argument
That’s loaded language which is a falsification what is actually occurring.
We all agree that Israel wants to relocate the Palestinian people outside of their border. It’s agreed that Israel has no intention of murdering or enslaving the population. That’s not cleansing, that’s a forced migration or population transfer.
We all know why you want to use loaded language because it generates a image in the minds of low information people of murder and enslavement.
It’s literally the definition of the phrase.
Ethnically cleansing an area, is ensuring an ethnicity is removed, or cleansed from the area.
I’m sorry you disagree with the dictionary, reality must be really difficult to deal with. But we have to deal with the reality we’re presented with, and not the reality we would like
I did not agree with you on either of those statements.
You haven’t brought it up, but I might as well head off the next issue, it is a genocide:
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
It is agreed that it is a genocide