That’s just them saying that the count is off. Theyre not calling anyone not trans. If I did a survey and the results were faulty about the amount of Black people, would it be racist to say the numbers seem off? About 0.5-1.6% of people in the US identify as trans. It would be quite a feat if half of their users were trans, when the unifying ideology is communism. Of course there are more trans people with leftist views, but what percentage of leftists are trans? We don’t have that number, but the chances of it equaling out to half of any user base that isn’t specifically trans-oriented are slim.
If they were to say “50% Of our user base has blue eyes,” it wouldn’t be hateful of blue eyed people to say that number is incorrect. It’s not about he identity of the unifying quality, it’s literally just about the claim that the number is way higher than it realistically is. You’re equating the hateful desire to erase trans people with simply saying “I don’t think the numbers can be that high.” Because it’s a touchy subject. But calling into question the probability isn’t hateful. Just math.
f I did a survey and the results were faulty about the amount of Black people, would it be racist to say the numbers seem off?
If you had no material reason to doubt those numbers and it was a community that was built by and for black people and you had a motivation to be blind to their minority status then… yea, it would be racist to say “I don’t believe it”
People who frequent MoG don’t want to acknowledge the trans and minority makeup of hexbear because that conflicts with their self-image of being trans allies… It has nothing to do with any factual basis of doubt of that demographic.
If you had no material reason to doubt those numbers
they do, though: transfolk represent a exceptionally small but real segment of the population; the idea that all of them found the same lemmy instance and joined it exclusively vs. allies and other users is pretty improbable.
this isn’t anyone questioning their honesty, simply remarking that the odds of it being that way are infinitesimal.
There is a reason: it’s that those numbers are highly improbable. That’s a very good reason to say “I don’t think you can back up your claim.” The burden of proof isn’t on the person saying they don’t think the number is realistic, it’s on the person who pulled a percentage out of their ass lol
That’s my first and overarching point. My secondary point is that this is a falsely touchy topic. It’s not actually touchy, but because a particular embattled group is the subject being counted, it suddenly becomes perceived as caustic. Exactly as we’re seeing with you, right now. You’re perceiving a greater injustice than what the actual situation is exhibiting.
No one is calling into question the existence and plight of trans people. It’s just that you can’t pull a number out of your ass. Just because the number is counting an oppressed minority, suddenly people will falsely jump to say, “HEY!” Even though it’s not warranted. If the number we’re counting anything else, they wouldn’t be coming for the existence X, Y, or Z. If the person said “I have 2,000 carrots at my house” and another said, “that’s highly unlikely,” that person wouldn’t have anything against carrots. See what I’m saying,
There is no one coming after trans people. This person is coming at another person for making up a number. Simple as.
Third, actually, the original person is standing up for trans people because the hexbear user is throwing trans people in front of the actual subject of the attack: hexbear users. So you’re def angry at the wrong person.
The burden of proof isn’t on the person saying they don’t think the number is realistic, it’s on the person who pulled a percentage out of their ass lol
“I don’t believe you’re trans, because trans people are exceedingly rare, and the burden of proof is on you for having pulled your self-identity out of your ass lmao”
It’s incredibly transphobic to assume those who self-report to be in a targeted minority are lying for some rhetorical benefit. Nobody wants to be subject to the harassment that comes with being gender non-binary, not even to score some hypothetical internet points.
It’s a ridiculous argument. Throwing “transphobe” onto things that just happen to pertain to transgendered people, regardless of what’s actually being discussed, hurts the community way more than saying a claimed percentage is probably inaccurate.
Way more.
This is the Israeli defense: anything that they don’t want to hear, they call antisemitic. Because it’s easier than having an argument and immediately puts the accused on their back foot.
But, and I’m sure you’ll agree with me here, that tactic ends up hurting Semitic people way more than whatever was being dismissed by Israel. That attitude is far more harmful to the conversation than engaging with the factual basis of the conversation.
Does changing the framing in that way help you see what I’m saying?
Fuck transphobia. I want the trans community to flourish and to be happy and free. But throwing the entire community in front of yourself in a personal argument in order to use “you’re transphobic” as a cudgel in a convo that otherwise isn’t about the actual trans community hurts the whole community way, way more. Because idiots will use that kind of shit as an excuse to hate the whole community—it’s basically asking for generalizing because you introduced the concept into the conversation. Just like idiots on the left have taken to antisemitism in a misconceived attempt at defending the Palestinian people, idiots will absolutely pick up the ball of likening an individual to the whole trans community.
I’m not your enemy here. I’m arguing for the trans community. We are having a difference of understanding but we both think we’re arguing for the same side. See what I’m trying to say?
Interestingly enough, I think a better example is Jewish people being accused of being fake/bad jews for being insufficiently supportive of the Israeli state, since the reason why people here, specifically doubt the trans makeup of hexbear is their insufficient support to western democracy. People find it uncomfortable to consider a trans individual might grand critical support to a state who has had reactionary trans-exclusionary policy, and so they cast doubt on the legitimacy of that membership.
Having a disagreement with a hexbear about politics is one thing, but projecting that disagreement onto their personal identity is explicitly bigoted. There isn’t any reason to doubt the trans demographic makeup of a community that was explicitly created as a trans-inclusionary leftist community.
That is not the same as telling someone they aren’t trans. He’s expressing doubt about the veracity of the results of the poll, not about any particular user(s)
There’s no actual reason to cast doubt on that makeup except for whatever prejudices you have against that community, and any amount of actual investigation would dispel those doubts.
We read the same statement. I interpret it as “I believe less than half of the userbase of the instance is trans” which does not rise to the level of telling someone they aren’t trans. Was anyone specific named or called out as “not trans”? Was there any direct accusation of insincerity or fakery with regards to an individual’s self-identification?
They conduct their own demographic polling - unless you believe their users are lying about their identity there is more demographic evidence in support of that figure than there is evidence to the contrary.
With regards to the polling you’ve referenced: of the 598 respondants, less than half indicated that they were definitively not cisgender. Hexbear, per prolewiki has “over 1,400 monthly users”.
Not only does the raw data from the self-report survey not bear out the premise that half of the users are trans, it also does not factor in response bias, which impacts any such survey.
less than half indicated that they were definitively not cisgender
It is just as accurate to say that less than half indicated that they definitively are cisgender - it depends on if you include questioning individuals is a part of the culturally dominant majority cisgender group, or if you view the questioning of your socially-reinforced gender as a departure from the norm.
Hexbear, per prolewiki has “over 1,400 monthly users”.
A sample group of 42% in any survey would be considered a high-quality representation, even when including the likelihood of response bias. But, then again, there’s still even less evidence for assuming it’s inaccurate simply because trans and communist identities are extremely uncommon in the general population - especially when hexbear is explicitly a trans-friendly leftist space.
Of course it can be. But the viewpoint called into question is “I don’t believe that half the users are trans”. Based on the data you personally referenced, that is a valid viewpoint for someone to hold without telling anyone who identifies specifically as trans that they are wrong about their gender.
that is a valid viewpoint for someone to hold without telling anyone who identifies specifically as trans that they are wrong about their gender.
It’s not a matter of opinion - either you’re interpreting that demographic survey and excluding the 10% who are not sure if they are trans or not, or you’re questioning the accuracy of the poll based on response bias or some other reason you’re not mentioning. Saying “I don’t believe this figure” isn’t born out of a reaction to that information, it’s simply an expression of disbelief that there could possibly be that many trans communists in a community you personally dislike.
Further, 598 is not 42% of “over 1,400”.
Ok… so what would you say is a reasonable estimate, then? 40%? 35%? Those are still very high sample rates
Hexbear existed as its own thing long before there were any lib instances to troll. It’s far more likely that their ideological framework is earnest and is simply incompatible with your own.
I don’t see anyone doing that in this example. Are you misinterpreting the meaning of the original statement?
“I definitely do not believe half their users are trans”
That’s just them saying that the count is off. Theyre not calling anyone not trans. If I did a survey and the results were faulty about the amount of Black people, would it be racist to say the numbers seem off? About 0.5-1.6% of people in the US identify as trans. It would be quite a feat if half of their users were trans, when the unifying ideology is communism. Of course there are more trans people with leftist views, but what percentage of leftists are trans? We don’t have that number, but the chances of it equaling out to half of any user base that isn’t specifically trans-oriented are slim.
If they were to say “50% Of our user base has blue eyes,” it wouldn’t be hateful of blue eyed people to say that number is incorrect. It’s not about he identity of the unifying quality, it’s literally just about the claim that the number is way higher than it realistically is. You’re equating the hateful desire to erase trans people with simply saying “I don’t think the numbers can be that high.” Because it’s a touchy subject. But calling into question the probability isn’t hateful. Just math.
If you had no material reason to doubt those numbers and it was a community that was built by and for black people and you had a motivation to be blind to their minority status then… yea, it would be racist to say “I don’t believe it”
People who frequent MoG don’t want to acknowledge the trans and minority makeup of hexbear because that conflicts with their self-image of being trans allies… It has nothing to do with any factual basis of doubt of that demographic.
they do, though: transfolk represent a exceptionally small but real segment of the population; the idea that all of them found the same lemmy instance and joined it exclusively vs. allies and other users is pretty improbable.
this isn’t anyone questioning their honesty, simply remarking that the odds of it being that way are infinitesimal.
There is a reason: it’s that those numbers are highly improbable. That’s a very good reason to say “I don’t think you can back up your claim.” The burden of proof isn’t on the person saying they don’t think the number is realistic, it’s on the person who pulled a percentage out of their ass lol
That’s my first and overarching point. My secondary point is that this is a falsely touchy topic. It’s not actually touchy, but because a particular embattled group is the subject being counted, it suddenly becomes perceived as caustic. Exactly as we’re seeing with you, right now. You’re perceiving a greater injustice than what the actual situation is exhibiting.
No one is calling into question the existence and plight of trans people. It’s just that you can’t pull a number out of your ass. Just because the number is counting an oppressed minority, suddenly people will falsely jump to say, “HEY!” Even though it’s not warranted. If the number we’re counting anything else, they wouldn’t be coming for the existence X, Y, or Z. If the person said “I have 2,000 carrots at my house” and another said, “that’s highly unlikely,” that person wouldn’t have anything against carrots. See what I’m saying,
There is no one coming after trans people. This person is coming at another person for making up a number. Simple as.
Third, actually, the original person is standing up for trans people because the hexbear user is throwing trans people in front of the actual subject of the attack: hexbear users. So you’re def angry at the wrong person.
“I don’t believe you’re trans, because trans people are exceedingly rare, and the burden of proof is on you for having pulled your self-identity out of your ass lmao”
It’s incredibly transphobic to assume those who self-report to be in a targeted minority are lying for some rhetorical benefit. Nobody wants to be subject to the harassment that comes with being gender non-binary, not even to score some hypothetical internet points.
That’s wholly mischaracterizing the discussion.
“Half is X.”
Based on what?
“How dare you be so hateful!”
It’s a ridiculous argument. Throwing “transphobe” onto things that just happen to pertain to transgendered people, regardless of what’s actually being discussed, hurts the community way more than saying a claimed percentage is probably inaccurate. Way more.
This is the Israeli defense: anything that they don’t want to hear, they call antisemitic. Because it’s easier than having an argument and immediately puts the accused on their back foot.
But, and I’m sure you’ll agree with me here, that tactic ends up hurting Semitic people way more than whatever was being dismissed by Israel. That attitude is far more harmful to the conversation than engaging with the factual basis of the conversation.
Does changing the framing in that way help you see what I’m saying?
Fuck transphobia. I want the trans community to flourish and to be happy and free. But throwing the entire community in front of yourself in a personal argument in order to use “you’re transphobic” as a cudgel in a convo that otherwise isn’t about the actual trans community hurts the whole community way, way more. Because idiots will use that kind of shit as an excuse to hate the whole community—it’s basically asking for generalizing because you introduced the concept into the conversation. Just like idiots on the left have taken to antisemitism in a misconceived attempt at defending the Palestinian people, idiots will absolutely pick up the ball of likening an individual to the whole trans community.
I’m not your enemy here. I’m arguing for the trans community. We are having a difference of understanding but we both think we’re arguing for the same side. See what I’m trying to say?
Interestingly enough, I think a better example is Jewish people being accused of being fake/bad jews for being insufficiently supportive of the Israeli state, since the reason why people here, specifically doubt the trans makeup of hexbear is their insufficient support to western democracy. People find it uncomfortable to consider a trans individual might grand critical support to a state who has had reactionary trans-exclusionary policy, and so they cast doubt on the legitimacy of that membership.
Having a disagreement with a hexbear about politics is one thing, but projecting that disagreement onto their personal identity is explicitly bigoted. There isn’t any reason to doubt the trans demographic makeup of a community that was explicitly created as a trans-inclusionary leftist community.
That is not the same as telling someone they aren’t trans. He’s expressing doubt about the veracity of the results of the poll, not about any particular user(s)
There’s no actual reason to cast doubt on that makeup except for whatever prejudices you have against that community, and any amount of actual investigation would dispel those doubts.
Not trusting the administrators is not an actual reason to doubt what the administrators say?
We read the same statement. I interpret it as “I believe less than half of the userbase of the instance is trans” which does not rise to the level of telling someone they aren’t trans. Was anyone specific named or called out as “not trans”? Was there any direct accusation of insincerity or fakery with regards to an individual’s self-identification?
They conduct their own demographic polling - unless you believe their users are lying about their identity there is more demographic evidence in support of that figure than there is evidence to the contrary.
With regards to the polling you’ve referenced: of the 598 respondants, less than half indicated that they were definitively not cisgender. Hexbear, per prolewiki has “over 1,400 monthly users”.
Not only does the raw data from the self-report survey not bear out the premise that half of the users are trans, it also does not factor in response bias, which impacts any such survey.
K, if the survey is wrong then it can be wrong the other way too, maybe OVER half the user base is trans.
Sure, it could be. But there is no inherent level of “telling someone they aren’t trans” by stating a belief that less than half are.
Not if there’s actual evidence to the contrary
It is just as accurate to say that less than half indicated that they definitively are cisgender - it depends on if you include questioning individuals is a part of the culturally dominant majority cisgender group, or if you view the questioning of your socially-reinforced gender as a departure from the norm.
A sample group of 42% in any survey would be considered a high-quality representation, even when including the likelihood of response bias. But, then again, there’s still even less evidence for assuming it’s inaccurate simply because trans and communist identities are extremely uncommon in the general population - especially when hexbear is explicitly a trans-friendly leftist space.
Of course it can be. But the viewpoint called into question is “I don’t believe that half the users are trans”. Based on the data you personally referenced, that is a valid viewpoint for someone to hold without telling anyone who identifies specifically as trans that they are wrong about their gender.
Further, 598 is not 42% of “over 1,400”.
It’s not a matter of opinion - either you’re interpreting that demographic survey and excluding the 10% who are not sure if they are trans or not, or you’re questioning the accuracy of the poll based on response bias or some other reason you’re not mentioning. Saying “I don’t believe this figure” isn’t born out of a reaction to that information, it’s simply an expression of disbelief that there could possibly be that many trans communists in a community you personally dislike.
Ok… so what would you say is a reasonable estimate, then? 40%? 35%? Those are still very high sample rates
That’s the only snip we need because we are talking about hexbear, you know, the instance designed to be a troll instance…
I could believe it if it was Beehaw… Maybe lemmynsfw
Hexbear existed as its own thing long before there were any lib instances to troll. It’s far more likely that their ideological framework is earnest and is simply incompatible with your own.