cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/13118199
(Title shamelessly stolen from this comment in the crossposted !micromobility thread.)
When does an E-Bike become a motorcycle that someone is just riding down a sidewalk?
God forbid they formulate some laws/rules that would allow people to safely use something other than a car.
The problem isn’t the class of the electric bike.
Riding on the sidewalk is extremely dangerous. Drivers will often turn (without signalling even) and not notice a bicycle coming up from behind them on a sidewalk. Driver also often back out of driveways without being able to see a bike approaching on a sidewalk.
Cyclists should be taught how to ride safely on the road and use all of the proper safety equipment.
I’ve commuted by bike for years and frequently shake my head when I see the behavior of other cyclists.
Cyclists should have safe infrastructure instead of riding with vehicle traffic. Don’t try to shift the responsibility.
I’m saying that as an experienced cyclist as well.
Not having safe infrastructure doesn’t make bikers any less dangerous to be around. My specific citation is the bay area, other places I’ve lived have not had the sheer quantity of bikers (and drivers) with a death wish/complete lack of spatial awareness.
Cyclists are more likely to die on the sidewalk than sharing the road. Given the choice, use the road 99% of the time.
I dunno, the sidewalk on the six lane stroad near me seems much safer than the fast, congested road with lane-hopping cars and low visibility.
I get it, and I use sidewalks sparingly, but it really is circumstantial (it’s legal to ride a footpath where I live). For example, slow riding a footpath is much safer than fast riding a footpath because you have more time to react to cars entering/exiting driveways. If you’re riding somewhere nearby that’s actually quite a nice experience. But if you are trying to get somewhere more than a kilometre away, slow footpath riding would obviously slow you down a lot.
Any sources to support your claim?
People ride on the sidewalks for a simple reason: the roads do not feel safe enough for riding for them, because there are car drivers there behaving in a manner lethal to non-car drivers (and other drivers too fwiw).
All solutions begin with taking the lethal actor out of the equation. Anything else is needless victim blaming and can be dismissed without any more discussion.
I don’t disagree that roads can feel unsafe. But there’s an important detail about sidewalk riding: you can be traveling against the direction of traffic. This is demonstrably dangerous at any kind of lot entry or any time cars can traverse the sidewalk path, because there should not be vehicle traffic moving in a different direction.
So I’d say both parts are true. Bikers may feel unsafe and may be unsafe on congested roads (or especially roads without dedicated bike paths), but riding on sidewalks is actually demonstrably unsafe for the biker (not to mention unsafe for anyone walking on the sidewalk).
This is demonstrably dangerous at any kind of lot entry or any time cars can traverse the sidewalk path, because there should not be vehicle traffic moving in a different direction.
It depends on the sidewalks. They should be on a different grade, and separated from the road by some distance. Although part of the problem is that SUVs jump kerbs more easily, and this type of “car” has become dominant in recent years.
While “it depends,” overall we have undeniable statistical data that a km on a sidewalk is on average more dangerous than a km on the road.
They should be on a different grade
This doesn’t apply to parking entrances or other areas where cars are expected to cross the sidewalk, which is the specific portion of that point.
And the bigger point in my view is pedestrians. I don’t believe that pedestrians should need to deal with bikers on the sidewalk. It’s called a sidewalk for a reason. Walk the bike.
I understand bikers being upset about unsafe road conditions, but lessening safety of sidewalks for pedestrians is not the answer.
All of these issues are systemic issues and a failure of infrastructure. It’s fine on an individual level to say that riding on footpaths isn’t ideal, but ultimately people are going to do it no matter how much you call them out for it, if they feel it’s the safer option than riding on the road. So if you don’t give people a safe option to ride their bikes, then they are going to have to pick between multiple unsafe options, which is not ideal when you are trying to drive an uptake in cycling. And the most important way to make cycling and walking safer, is to increase their popularity, because it means there are less cars, and cars are a much more serious threat to pedestrians.
Anyway, we are probably talking past each other a bit. I think that in the end you are talking about sensible individual choices (which is fine), but I feel that the majority of efforts and discussion need to be directed at governments if we want to make cycling so safe that even a 5 year can ride around unsupervised.
I used to cycle on the sidewalk, but my town started enforcing cycling in the bicycle gutter instead. I did that for a while, but then I got hit and run by a car. As a 16 year old. I don’t ride my bike anymore unless it’s a trail or something.
You can be both a victim AND an abuser. Being a victim does not excuse your actions that put OTHER PEOPLE at risk.
The fact that I’ve seen so few cyclists wearing high visibility gear is astounding. That was the first thing I bought after buying my bike, was a high-vis retro-reflective vest. Probably also helps that my bike has running lights, but still.
People shouldnt need to be neon colored to not be killed on their commute.
I agree, but we don’t live in that world. Until our governments start giving a shit, we gotta do what we gotta do. If we’re going to be forced to share the road with two ton death machines, it only makes sense to ensure that they can at least see us.
I consider lights to be a necessity. I have a bright 1800 lumen Niterider headlight that I love and (I think) a 350 lumen Cygolite taillight. I never ride on the road without at least the taillight flashing.
I see so many inexperienced or uneducated cyclists in my city, I almost want to make some sort of “safe cycling” video tutorial. Stuff like not riding on sidewalks (especially on stroads), Idaho stops, how to navigate intersections safely, when to take the lane, how to find routes that are safer for cycling rather than just using the route you’d take in a car, etc.
I actually feel safer on my bike than as a pedestrian in my city, but people don’t know the basics of safe cycling and get frightened by all the close calls they get when/if they try cycling. They then proceed to never cycle again because it’s “dangerous”, when really most of the danger can be avoided with smart, conscious riding.
I think that anyone who bicycles around motor vehicles is going to have a frightening moment or close call at some point. Riding on roads where one feels most comfortable will hopefully help keep them riding, and when they feel comfortable and experienced enough, move to more “active” roads.
There’s a road where I live that’s 25mph speed limit, very busy with cars, pedestrians, shops, intersections, crosswalks, and lots of people looking for on street parking. I’ve been cycling for years and that road still requires ALL of my attention and lightning reflexes to navigate safely.
I’ve been cycling on the road for a good 25+ years at this point… and sorry but, you’re full of shit. No matter what I do to “cycle safely”, I still get close passed, cut off, left hooked, raged at for taking the lane (as is safe to do so)… The issue isn’t my cycling, its the cars and the idiots driving them.
Yep, was at a 4 way stop the other day, let 2 cars go through the intersection, go myself and nearly get run over and the driver tried to tell me to wait my turn. Old fuck never even looked. I’m 6’0" on a fat tire ebike wearing a safety jacket and was standing the entire time
I guess I didn’t express myself properly, because I did not in any way want to suggest that safe cycling practices would necessarily protect you from the hoards of ignorant and inattentive drivers on the roads. IMO the best advice for cycling is ride as if everyone in a car is actively trying to hurt you.
That being said, I do see a lot of cyclists in my city do stuff which puts them in risky situations more often than they need to be, which is what I was trying (and apparently failed, judging from the downvotes) to get at. No amount of safe cycling practices will make up for improper infrastructure or lack of proper driver training, that much I’m sure we agree on.But I’d hope you’ll agree that one’s not putting the odds in their favour if they’re, for example, riding down the wrong side of the road on the sidewalk at night without lights. If you’ve been cycling for 25+ years, I’ve no doubt you already follow most if not all of the safe cycling practices I wish I could share with my fellow cyclists, the intent of my comment was not to victim-blame cyclists but rather expressing my wish to help educate noobie cyclists to reach the level of knowledge and comfort on the road that more experienced cyclists like us take for granted.
Of course you’ll still face road conflicts no matter what, the majority of drivers are a menace to public safety. It’s not a matter of eliminating risk, it’s about minimizing points of potential conflict in order to minimize risk.
Fair enough, I don’t think you’re entirely wrong. There’s definitely something to acknowledging that we’re cycling in an imperfect environment and that there’s things we can do to make it safer - its just a really awkward line to toe especially because such videos (that do already exist, and some are even put out by cycling-related government agencies) usually start with “don’t forget your helmet and your hi-viz and your £500 lights” before they even get into the roadcraft side of things, as though any of those things actually do anything to stop drivers being dicks.
Unfortunately, an individual cyclist cannot enact laws, build infrastructure, or change a culture of dangerous driving by oneself.
What we can do is take precautions and cycle cautiously.
That’s for individuals though, any political entity focusing on cyclists’ behaviour instead of the behaviour of drivers is missing the mark so badly.
As for the existence of such “safety” videos, the ones I’ve seen have all been jokes because the insist heavily on following the law, especially government-funded videos. Breaking road laws written for motor vehicles is, in many situations as a cyclist, the safest course of action, but I’ve yet to see any safety video address this.
As for the existence of such “safety” videos, the ones I’ve seen have all been jokes because the insist heavily on following the law, especially government-funded videos. Breaking road laws written for motor vehicles is, in many situations as a cyclist, the safest course of action, but I’ve yet to see any safety video address this.
Yeah, I think we’re in agreement for the most part here too. I’ve even seen “cycling safety” videos put out by car companies and you can imagine the sort of nonsense they come out with!
Obviously it depends entirely where you live and what laws you have, but where I am most of the rules we’re supposed to follow as cyclists do make sense and are relatively safe guidelines. The issues come because drivers think the rules don’t say what they do (common example: there’s nothing stopping cyclists in a bunch riding however many abreast they can, and nothing stopping a single cyclist from taking the lane rather than hugging the curb, but many drivers feel that this is illegally holding up traffic/being unsafe). I wish we had things like Idaho Stop laws, I’ve ridden in states that allow this and it really does help a lot of situations.
If you’ve been doing it this long you know that you’re the outlier. Bicyclists are terrifying to be near.
I guess every single person I know who also cycles in my area who says the same thing are outliers too.
