Nakba doesn’t convey the severity of this. At least in English. An ethnic cleansing, a genocide, a destruction of the people. More descriptive terms for the English audience
The Palestinian Holocaust
Nakba conveys it just fine if you have read history.
Nakba is a term I’ve never heard of until 2 weeks ago.
I’m not the most well-read person on the planet, but I have a decent amount of world history knowledge. I imagine most people don’t know what nakba means if they’re not already involved with Palestine history.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Nakba&hl=en-US
For me it’s like when Jewish people say something is a pogrom. The historical context behind it has some bearing.
per they article they’re being forced to leave & go anywhere else. that’s not genocide.
a textbook case of genocide - Raz Segal - JewishCurrents
I’m no genocideoligist, but Raz Segal is.
Raz Segal (Hebrew: רז סגל) is an Israeli historian residing in the United States who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program at Stockton University
In the linked above article, he walks through the definition of genocide, and the actions taken. It fits the definition.
When you’re a genocideologist everything looks like genocide.
It’s inherent to his genocideology
Average person says it’s a genocide: “It’s not a genocide! What do you know?”
Literal expert in genocide, who’s also Jewish, says it’s a genocide and gives details why: “Of course it looks like a genocide to them! They’re always looking for genocides!”
What do you imagine an ‘expert in genocide’ knows more about genocide than you do?
An expert in the field has spent a lifetime studying, writing, debating, and thinking about the field. We can survey the course catalog at Stockton on Genocide studies to get a first taste in what a expert would be able to contribute.
These specifically stand out as focuses relevant to our conversation today ‘Witness to Genocide, Genocide War Crimes and Law, War Nationalism and Genocide, Ordinary Evil’… tell me what is your philosophy on Ordinary Evil?
https://www.stockton.edu/general-studies/holocaust-and-genocide-studies.html
- GAH 2114 Perspectives on Genocide
- GSS 2240 The Holocaust
- ANTH 2220 Ethnicity
- GAH 2112 Art, Politics and the Nazi Era
- GAH 2113 Non-Jewish Victims of the Nazis
- GAH 2119 History and Memory of Nazi Era
- GAH 2156 History of Antisemitism
- GAH 2319 Music and the Holocaust
- GAH 2326 Art and the Holocaust
- GAH 2362 The Armenian Genocide
- GAH 3215 Literature of Genocide and Upheaval
- GAH 3234 Holocaust Literature
- GAH 3248 Media, Public Perception & Genocide
- GEN 2238 The Holocaust and Children’s Literature
- GEN 2308 Children of the Holocaust
- GIS 3418 Witness to Genocide
- GIS 3601 Seminar on the Holocaust
- GIS 3658 Women and Genocide
- GIS 3659 Genocide, War Crimes and Law
- GIS 3660 The Impact of the Holocaust
- GIS 3662 Will Genocide Ever End?
- GIS 3665 The Great War and the Armenian Genocide
- GIS 3666 The Holocaust in Film and Literature
- GIS 3667 Families in Genocide: History and Memory
- GIS 3671 The Holocaust and the Christian World
- GIS 4482 Climate Change, Conflict and Genocide
- GIS 4641 Approaches to Auschwitz
- GSS 1057 War, Nationalism and Genocide
- GSS 2190 Ordinary Evil
- GSS 2196 Race and Nation in History
- GSS 2216 Holocaust and Genocide Denial
- GSS 2248 Business and Nazi Germany
- GSS 2328 Native America and Genocide
- GSS 2353 America and the Holocaust
- GSS 2432 Civic Mindfulness in the 21st century
- GSS 3172 Ethnic Violence and Nationalism
- GSS 3211 Refugees in the Modern World
- GSS 3212 The Rwandan Genocide
- GSS 3240 Holocaust and Genocide Education
- GSS 3278 Study Tour: Holocaust
- GSS 3946 Holocaust Resource Center Internship
- HIST 2117 Modern Germany
- HIST 3615 Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin
- HIST 3616 History of the Third Reich
- LITT 3206 Literature after the Holocaust
- LITT 3318 Literature and Genocide
Raz Segal appears to have done lots of research of the societal bystander effect, where a genocide can happen without anyone getting involved…
One of his lectures, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJH4NDfINE8
he is well spoken, his lecture took more then 2 minutes…
You gave such a thoughtful well crafted response to a person who is clearly being a troll. But thank you for that, at least you provide good reading materials.
That’s a long list, but is there anything in there you didn’t figure out yourself?
That’s a long list, but is there anything in there on genocide you couldn’t figure out yourself?
Are you a literalist where all the people fitting the demographic must be killed to the last person in order for it to be literal genocide? Because right now your argument is “Nuh uh! No it isn’t!” with zero backup in the face of historical evidence and the words of an expert. Even in America we committed a genocide of our natives, yet some of them live, some of them were made to move elsewhere, and not all of them were killed off.
It’s abundantly clear you willfully refuse to understand what “genocide” is.
Well the ‘cide’ part refers to ‘killing’
How would you differentiate between ‘forcefully made to move’ and ‘killed’ if you can’t imagine using different words for them?
They have different phrases
Ethnic Cleansing - Clearing a ethnicity from a area
Genocide - The pogrom being persecuted in Gaza now.
Ethnic Cleansing is part of a overall Genocide.
You really should read the article, it clarifies things greatly. https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide.
Stubborn one, aren’t ya.
Does studying the occurrences and causes of genocide make you unable to correctly identify them? I would think it to be the opposite, them being able to better identify and understand current genocides or events and actions that might lead to one.
Genocide is a rather simple word. It’s a contraction of geno (race) with cide (murder/killing). Anyone telling you they’ve needed to study the meaning of the word for more than 2 minutes is either a moron or a liar
You have spent more then 2 minutes discussing genocide here with us today, have you not used more then 2 minutes of thought in all your posts?
Writing a book on genocide would take more then 2 minutes. Writing a catalog of all known genocides would take more then 2 minutes. Writing up the definition of genocide would take more then 2 minutes, getting two people to agree on a definition would take FOREVER. Getting 152 countries to agree on the definition of genocide would take years…
Taking a complex issue, and being reductive to the point of absurdity isn’t being helpful.
On the contrary, I believe trying to expand a definition to the point of absurdity isn’t helpful.
The idea behind the term genocide is clear and simple: the intent to destroy an ethnicity.
People are trying to call Israels intent to disperse the ethnic Arabs from Palestine a genocide (to add more weight to the crime), when even the UN definition is clear this is not included.
So tomorrow if I come armed and evict you from your home, along with your family that would be okay, because there are other places where you can go and live? Is this what you are trying to tell us?
Let’s be charitable. That’s not what they’re saying.
They’re saying it doesn’t fit the murder everybody definition of genocide, which is a fair position. However, Genocide is more broadly defined by the UN, and ethnically cleansing a region, is a part of an overall genocide.
Update: I should not have been charitable…
Well that’s the UN’s fault for wording ethnic cleansing as a form of genocide, which in reality it can be a part of.
But in the real world it’s just liars first lobbying to broaden a written definition to later abuse it.
What language would you use to describe removing an ethnicity from an area, so that it may be ethnically pure for a different ethnicity?
Ethnic purification?
Get ready for it…
Drumroll
“Ethnic Cleansing”
Applause
I misunderstood your previous argument.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Genocide_Convention
The people who wrote and vote for the UN convention against genocide, includes Israel.
So we’re measuring them by their own metric, using their own legislation, which they wrote and voted for. Seems fair.
Are you a fucking retard?
No need for the ableist slur. There are much better, creative, and entertaining ways to insult people who act in bad faith and have the self-awareness of a modern LLM.
Go apply to the UN. They have some vacancies now that Israel bombed so many UN workers in their home. I’m sure they will appreciate all your thoughtful commentary!
is forcing people to go anywhere else actually “ethnically cleansing” though? to me, that terminology is best described as rounding everyone of a certain ethnic background up, shooting them all, burying the bodies, and then moving on to the next group.
this isnt that.
If you want an area of land with a single ethnicity, to clean the area so it is pure for that ethnicity, that is a form of ethnic cleansing.
If you take a city and say all people who are not genetically x, or believe in religion y, must leave. That is a form of ethnic cleansing, you are cleaning the area for a specific ethnicity.
The cleansing doesn’t have to involve death, could just involve displacement, or even The ability to have children.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.
eh… using a definition that broad would mean that most asian countries are guilty of ethnic cleansing. a lot of african countries would qualify too, as would many european nations (other than, you know, germany).
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ethnic_cleansing
The word has a very clear meaning. I’m sorry you don’t like that definition, but the reason we have dictionaries is so that we can agree on definitions.
How would you describe ethnically purifying an area?
Yes, ethnic cleansing is very common in human history… You’re right. Lots of countries are guilty of it. Doesn’t make it any less bad just common
most
asiancountries are guilty of ethnic cleansingYes, they are/have been. Almost all countries have committed horrible atrocities in the past or present. That doesn’t make this not ethnic cleansing or not atrocious.
See, you’re not playing the game by the rules certain groups are playing.
Israel wants to relocate a ethnic people. Certain group like to call that genocide because it sounds worse. Genocide actually means killing off a ethnic group. Population transfer is what Israel wants to do.
Latin: genos (race or tribe) and cide (killing).
So about that…
Population transfer is not equal to ethic or tribal killing. Someone at the UN needs to learn latin.
Are you claiming that they’re saying that everything that is not genocide is ok?
No, I am not, in this particular context I was speaking strictly about this particular occurrence of unprovoked violence.
well, you wont. but sure, for the sake of argument, lets say you did. let’s further assume that I am not ensconced in my comfortable house in a first world nation just like you, but instead eke out a miserable existence watching goats eat scrub. yes, i would move and be grateful to finally have an excuse to do so.
so, just to reiterate: moving from one place to another isnt genocide. imagine that!
People are not grateful for being displaced. Especially when you don’t have any economic prospects in the place you’re displaced to.
I don’t know what your least favorite country in the world is, but for the sake of argument let’s say it’s Yemen. If I forced you to leave under threat of death, to move to Yemen, without your social network, without your wealth, without knowledge of the local language, without a special skill set, without anything except one pair of clothes. You would not be ecstatic about that, you would not be grateful.
I would hazard a guess that most people do not like being forced to do anything, even if it’s in their best interest
shepherds already have extremely limited economic prospects. it’s not like they’re skilled artisans, constructing unique crafts that can only be manufactured using materials that can only be sourced from that one geographic location. no, they oversee domesticated herd-beasts that dont have any natural predators in their habitat and feed themselves on whatever plants grow wherever they happen to be - lichen, thorn bushes, dried straw, etc.
it’s only a occupation by definition, but a pet rock could be just as good of a shepherd - it takes about as much “skill” to do. outside of the inner desert regions & cities, a shepherd can exist, if not thrive - ie: they can do the same thing wherever they go. herding communities are usually insular in nature - they dont need to know the local language. their source of food, their entire reason for being, those are animals and they feed themselves - the animals are usually their currency as well.
maybe a change of scenery is exactly what they need - they may even be thankful for it in the months and years to come.
As someone who herds sheep for a living, I’m going to guess you’ve never herded sheep in your life lol.
I tended some goats a few times as a favor to a neighbor - well, made sure they didnt get out of their fenced off area of 3 acres. honestly found it to be very dull and uninspiring. perhaps I was doing it wrong? maybe there’s a way to spice it up? do you dress up in a wolf costume to keep things lively? toss lit fireworks at the sheeples?
do tell, I’m sure the stories you’ve got will be absolutely riveting!
I see you’ve changed the goal post from being grateful immediately, to being thankful in the future.
Just because you don’t respect somebody’s occupation, doesn’t mean they don’t value their own occupation. Independence has huge psychological benefits for people.
Not to mention refugees, are moved to places that already have economies, and land use, so there’s not going to be open land for shepherd to feed a flock on. They’re going to be competing with the locals.
I really don’t know why you are wasting your time arguing with people like him, he won’t see reason no matter how hard you try.
you’re totally correctamundo about my complete and total lack of respect for their occupation - I reiterate, a garden gnome would be just as effective at herding animals as a shepherd. is being forced to do the same thing that your father did because he did the same thing his father did actually independence? it seems to me that’s flawed thinking. the world is constantly in flux - a rigid, uncompromising, unyielding nature isnt going to get you very far. that’s even more true when you’re going to get to experience new vistas.
changed the goal post? should we be as unyielding as you’re insinuating that the shepherds are, or should be? should they be ungrateful in the now and regretful in the future? does it even matter? will they have to compete, strive, suffer? of course they will! suffering is part of the human condition - it has ever been thus.
Oh now I see, you truly believe those people are subhuman and their lives don’t matter. Glad that you have finally shown your true nature, so that I can simply block you, and have my feed not stained with people like you!
Removed by mod
Displacement is part of genocide.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Life in Zanuta, a Palestinian village atop a windy ridge in the desolate south Hebron hills, deep in the occupied West Bank, has never been easy.
The community are mostly herders who raise goats and sheep through the barren landscape’s scorching summers and freezing winters, and who have steadfastly refused to leave their homes despite the mounting difficulties posed by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) soldiers on one hand and radical Israeli settlers on the other.
Armed settlers – some in reservist army uniforms, some covering their faces – have begun breaking into their homes at night, beating up adults, destroying and stealing belongings, and terrifying the children.
On Monday, men and women cried as they dismantled their homes and haphazardly packed solar panels, animal feed and personal belongings on to pickup trucks.
Masafer Yatta, a collection of shepherding hamlets including Zanuta, is in area C, the sparsely populated 60% of the West Bank under full Israeli control and under threat of annexation.
In Zanuta on Monday, pickup trucks trundled down the dirt track to the main road, full to the brim; they came back empty a few hours later to collect more belongings from the destroyed community.
The original article contains 1,198 words, the summary contains 198 words. Saved 83%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
So now that the whole advanced world is supporting (fervently in some cases) this ethnic cleansing, how do we move forward? It is clear that palestinians will not remain the area, the question is whether to kill them all, or to exile them.
Considering that this is a (heavily) US-backed ethnic cleansing , it is only fair that the palestinians be cleansed into Jordan, which is the US protectorate in the area. One can understand why Egyptians (one of the few actual nation-states in the region) don’t want 2 million refugees, so there seems to be no other option. The US should come forward and start discussing this. The option to turn millions of palestinians to the EU as refugees is not going to be met with the passivity that the waves of immigrants of syrians, afghans, africans and ukrainians have. I think people can see the pattern here, the continuation of the Cold War, when europe acts as a bulwark for the US , taking all the damage for the shit the US does.
I’m sure you don’t mean to offend, but the phrase “whole civilized world” being used to describe just the US + parts of western Europe is questionable at the very best.
Nakba is David vs Goliath except David is a fascistic terrorist organization and ever-growing Goliath kicks the shit out of David every time.
Perhaps don’t rely on a religious fascism for your liberation? Have you ever tried that?
You’re trying so hard to describe Hamas but ended up describing Israel in the process.
It’s depressing that the world thinks Palestinians want every Jew dead, but there’s actually only one side saying “Death to all [race]” and it’s the Israelis.
Meanwhile, Hamas rewrote its charter to remove antisemitism and declare its resistance to Zionism rather than Judaism, but they can’t be trusted because they’re evil muslims, and the Israelis are descendants of god (white Europeans).
So Israel is David?
Come on, my analogy wasn’t that difficult.
It was pretty bad.
fascistic terrorist organization is clearly the government of Israel.
“Goliath kicks the shit out of David every time.” is however not Palestine, because sadly the genocide Israel is committing is indictive of it’s superior invading force against innocent families.
Ok, I’ll spell it out to you. In my analogy:
- David: fascistic government of Palestine (also called Hamas)
- Goliath: Israel
I’m aware that in 1 Samuel 17, David is Isrealites, whereas Goliath represents Philistines. My analogy is a kind of a subversion of this traditional story.
David: fascistic government of Palestine (also called Hamas)
I think @Deceptichum’s point is that Hamas isn’t the government of Palestine,
has never been the governmenthas only been the ruling party of the of the Palestinian Authority from 2006-2007, and didn’t exist in the Gaza Strip before 1988. Calling the various Palestinian organizations that opposed Israel’s aggression against Arabs ‘Hamas’ and labeling them collectively as ‘fascist’ seems absurd, given Israel is the other candidate in the analogy.Your analogy is terrible, not because people don’t understand the subversion, but because you’re wrong about basic facts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
On 20 February, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh was nominated to form a new government. The new government with Haniyeh as Prime Minister was sworn in on 29 March. These were the last contested elections to be held before Hamas took over the Gaza Strip in 2007; no new elections have been held since.
Thanks for the clarification. I’ve updated my comment to be more accurate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority
In the Palestinian legislative elections on 25 January 2006, Hamas emerged victorious and nominated Ismail Haniyeh as the Authority’s Prime Minister. However, the national unity Palestinian government effectively collapsed, when a violent conflict between Hamas and Fatah erupted, mainly in the Gaza Strip. After the Gaza Strip was taken over by Hamas on 14 June 2007, the Authority’s Chairman Mahmoud Abbas dismissed the Hamas-led unity government and appointed Salam Fayyad as Prime Minister, dismissing Haniyeh. The move wasn’t recognized by Hamas, thus resulting in two separate administrations – the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and a rival Hamas government in the Gaza Strip.
The government of greater Palestine is Fatah.
If you want to condemn a group, call them by their name, Hamas. Conflating the people of Palestine, the country of Palestine and Hamas is a disservice to humanity. It helps to dehumanize and we should avoid that
You’re right. I should’ve said “fascistic government of Gaza (also called Hamas)”. It’s often easy to conflate these, because they themselves call Gaza Palestine and themselves as palestinians.
Yes. Fascist governments like to conflate their ideology, and the people who suffer under them.
