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It’s almost like the average person doesn’t care about the fediverse and decentralisation and only wants muskless twitter. Nooo clearly the normies are idiot sheep
People who genuinely think like this (as in, that users going to Bluesky is somehow bad, surprising or something only stupid people do) are the very reason systems such as Mastodon cannot work. And sadly they naturally pervade such systems, at a development, administration and user level.
Mastodon is gatekept to hell and back, the technicalities of federation are exposed to the user for some reason (you already lose half your potential user base right there), infighting between instances means that you won’t see the entire discourse of a post depending on which instance you’re at…
And besides all that, bsky is not as “corpo” as mastodon fanboys make it out to be. They’re on track to open up to privately hosted instances as well, and you can already run most of their backend stuff yourself.
As much as I like the ‘decentralized’ stuff, the technical part of federation should NEVER be exposed to the end user if you want the platform to be mainstream. I still don’t understand why a lot of federated projects think it’s a good idea to expose that to the end user.
Whenever Lemmy or Masto gets a flood of new users, a portion of them never make it past the instance selection and totally bail.
The user experience was designed by people who literally respond to user feedback by telling users to commit new code to the project.
It’s clearly designed by engineers who assume other users will be just like them.
If bluesky ever becomes actually federated, won’t it have the same problem?
Probably not. Currently it seems on track that you’re always first on their main instance. If you’re technically inclined you could then start hosting a federated part yourself (or joining one), but this does not change that the actual entry experience is exactly the same as on Twitter, hence why transition is so insanely smooth and painless.
The way sign up currently is, probably not. It would still default to bsky.social and your average person isn’t going to think about it.
But then it’s not federated. It’s all on one giant monolith of a server. Perhaps the traffic is shared between machines, but that’s not the same thing as federated.
I think a lot of the attitude I saw on mastodon about this like a year ago was one of suspicion that they wanted an open network but didn’t use the fediverse standard
Which AFAIK isn’t a standard, so… 🤷
I assume the main reason is that ActivityPub is a mess and quite overcomplicated for bsky’s needs. Being permanently tied to it seems like a big risk. There’s no reason why they couldn’t make a compatibility layer later and hook into it.
“Write a bit about yourself to join this server and if we decide you’re too boring and normal we’ll reject your application and say you’re a spammer afterwards”
Hmm I wonder why normies aren’t flocking to these fediverse platforms, what could be stopping them, couldn’t be the shitty onboarding process could it? Nah asking people to apply is the best onboarding process ever (obvious big ass /s)
I tried to join Beehaw simply because a reddit community I was actively part in went there.
I got told that’s not a valid reason to join, and that further applications from me would be ignored. I mean… okay? Sure… guess I’m no longer part of that community.
You don’t have to do that when you sign up for mstdn.social, and it’s also not a requirement for mastodon.social And there are more instances where you don’t have to apply like that.
But when it’s asked that you apply to the server, it’s usually to ease the load of moderation, to see if you would fit the vibe of that instance. And/or to protect the more vulnerable people on that particular instance.
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You don’t have to do that when you sign up for mstdn.social, and it’s also not a requirement for mastodon.social And there are more instances where you don’t have to apply like that.
Yes, and we need much more like that if we want this platform to be sucessful as a whole. Normies want to join social medias, not clubs.
But when it’s asked that you apply to the server, it’s usually to ease the load of moderation, to see if you would fit the vibe of that instance. And/or to protect the more vulnerable people on that particular instance.
We all know or should know that running a platform like a club where people need to apply and have their worth manually determined is a toxic and unwelcoming environment that does not promote any kind of growth, and the fact that it is common and encouraged is not helpful to the fediverse long term. It just pushes normies away. Because a social media doesn’t ask people to apply, a club does. Most people don’t want to join small exclusive clubs.
The vast majority of users are on general instances without demands like that. If you don’t want to join an exclusive club, just pick a sever that is not intended to be an exclusive club (I.e. nearly any of the big ones).
Yes, and we need much more like that if we want this platform to be sucessful as a whole. Normies want to join social medias, not clubs.
Why? There’s plenty of general servers aimed at normies that don’t require you to write an essay about yourself.
Let those specialty servers be specialty servers. Some only want artists, some only want neurodivergent people, some only want trans people on their platform. That’s their right! They get to decide who comes on their platform and who doesn’t. It’s not up to you to decide that for them. You need to understand that the people hosting these servers are not gazillionaires that do this out of the kindness of their hearts, they want to foster a certain atmosphere and a certain community on their server, and they do their best to keep disruptive people out. And one way of doing that is by limiting who gets on.
So instead of desperately trying to join blahaj_artists.social, why not join normies.social like mastodon.social or mstdn.social, or mastodon.coffee or any of the other ‘normie’ mastodon servers.
Go here, select “Sign up process: instant” and choose any of the servers on that page, and you’ll get in, without having to write an essay about yourself.
Many Lemmy instances are requiring their users to apply for an account.
And that makes it better how?
It doesn’t that was the point of my comment, it is sarcastic, because asking normies to write about themselves then manually determine their worth before they join will exclude the vast majority of them. Applications are how you run exclusive clubs, not a social media platform. Which is the biggest reason the Fediverse sucks for regular people.
I don’t want to join a club, I want to join a regular platform. That’s why I joined discuss.online and not any of the other exclusive club instances.
It lowers the barrier of entry which may deter some people who just want to check out the space first.
Granted, it also makes it more accessible to scammers, so give and take really.
Tbf it’s a good way to keep the laziest of shits out
Elitist neckbeards like you are why Mastodon and Lemmy are still boring
I DON’T RECALL GETTING A PAYCHECK TO POST
Agreed. If someone can’t be bothered to write two sentences, they really have no business being on a discussion platform. Because clearly they won’t be contributing much if anything to the conversation.
Great, so you want to join a club instead of a social media? Is that it? Because that’s what you’re advocating for, small private clubs which most normies don’t have enough interest to join, out of fear of being rejected or just being rejected multiple times anyway. “Wonder why it’s so empty here?” -Lemmy Users trying to figure out why their exclusive Lemmy clubs haven’t taken off.
Most people aren’t satisfied with Lemmy’s very small and stagnant growth, and I can say I’m one of them, asking people to prove their worth and rejecting them for being a normie is a horrible strategy for growth.
Users don’t cost much to keep around, especially if they don’t post. The data needed for the account would be authentication data, and post data, the second of which doesn’t apply to users who don’t post, and the first one being negligible compared to the amount of space available on a common hard drive. So, why not just give them a chance?
So many of the people who are most invested in federation are a contradiction in terms; centralized social media is evil and it’s fucked up that it’s the norm, but also anyone who isn’t a cynical, crotchety Gen Xer with a tech degree doesn’t belong on federated social media.
What percentage of people who join platforms like Twitter or Bluesky actually post anything though?
If Mastodon wanted to be preferred, it should have been better. I moved to Mastodon over a year ago when the Twitter sale first happened. It was not great then and it’s gotten slightly worse since. I created a Bluesky account two days ago and it already offers exactly the experience I missed from Twitter before Elon.
Would it be better if Mastodon was good and the federated FOSS option was superior? Sure, absolutely. But, that scenario isn’t even close to the case we are presented with.
I’ve been a heavy Mastodon user for two years, and I honestly don’t see why so many people on Lemmy give it so much shit. Certainly not in favour of the likes of Bluesky.
I get WAY more engagement with my posts on there than I ever did on Twitter. And maybe I’m just at an age where I don’t give a shit about celebrity, but I couldn’t care less that all the Big Names have gone to Bluesky and Threads. It’s great not seeing the same people being shared into my TL all the time.
Can you give actual examples?
I feel the only thing that Mastodon ‘misses’ is some feed to get you addicted.
Seconded, some specific examples would be helpful.
I’ve got a bsky account too but I get way more engagement on my fedi accounts. I’ve been building up my follows for 15 years on the fedi so bsky never had a chance to catch up. it probably never will.
15… Years? On the fediverse? How’d ya manage that without time travel?
The fediverse is older than mastodon.
Friendica and GNU Social/StatusNet date back to 2010. That’s nearly 15 years ago. Diaspora is also from around the same era, which IIRC was aiming to be something more like a decentralized Facebook (with groups and stuff) rather than just status updates like Twitter.
Huh, didn’t realise it was that old. TiL I guess.
I feel like you guys are addicted to letting perfect be the enemy of good. Yes, Bluesky being corporate run will probably be an issue down the line, but if it becomes mainstream then people will be used to seeing .APP.INSTANCE and feel more comfortable with the fediverse interface, which I know at least for me was a big hurdle. Like seriously, the fact that the next big thing is federated, even if in name only, is a big step forward.
Yeah I’m a huge believer in federated systems but I believe that a lot of ‘normies’ going to bluesky is a huge step in the right direction. Even though most don’t know anything about the tech behind it and migrate because twitter has become a bot infested right wing hell scape, they still are one step closer to being fully integrated to the fediverse.
Bluesky’s ActivityPub support is also leagues better than Threads because of Bridgy Fed. At least a Bluesky user and a Mastodon user can follow each other and have a back-and-forth conversation.
Yeah exactly! I’ve even used the bridge yesterday since I’m on Mastodon, and my girlfriend just migrated to bluesky after hearing about the exodus. The process is really easy and only takes a bit of time for some of the DMs to get sent, but otherwise I have no complaints!
please don’t bridge bsky to fedi.
Why not?
Half a loaf is better than no loaf
Expecting perfection is a huge problem in all aspects of life. People just want instant perfection and aren’t willing to work towards it. Then there’s just apathy and that leads to stagnation or worse regression.
the irony of a bsky supporter complaining about being judged because it’s not perfect.
Imo sorry, but you are literally the reason why the fediverse has a bad name. Stop gatekeeping stuff or asking others to do so and just defederate if you don’t like it.
I genuinely have no idea what you’re implying lol
I think he accidentally called you perfect.
That’s the only interpretation I’m getting from it
I think the hate for BlueSky is proof that it’s important enough to work. Buhbye elon
Jumping from one frying pan into the next.
lucky for us, we aren’t running out of jumps.
I just looove how ppl believe that switching from one VC-funded centralised corpo platform to another VC-funded (slitghly less) centralised corpo platform is a good thing /s
Just because it’s (partially) OSS doesn’t make it good. The corp still hold all the power and might sell out, but at least they got free volunteers to program for them so the C-level could get more money!
(Now don’t tell me that Bluesky is “federated”. They still hold all the power over site rules and moderation. The only little concession you get is that you are allowed to host your own data)
Apparently virtue signaling about pseudofederation is enough for libs to “get hope for the future of the internet” while they happily lick the boot of yet another centralized “trust me bro this isn’t going to enshittify itself, not this time” corp
I just loooove how pppl believe that whether something has VC-funding or is federated has any effect at all on how people pick software and systems to use.
I mean, users don’t even not care, because “caring vs not caring” assumes that the metric they can care about or not mentally exists in their context for judging a decision. Which it does not. Which is a very important part so many software designers of user-facing software forget, to users a short-form posting instance is a tool. A hammer. You use the one you got. Once it becomes defunct, you get a new one. You pick one that all your friends use, because hey, must be great if everyone uses it. Does it have some downsides? Maybe, but frankly it’s a hammer who cares?!
The only little concession you get is that you are allowed to host your own data)
Nah, that’s not even a concession. You just pay for a portion of their server costs at no gain in influence.
Problem with Masto though is that the technological leadership is really bonkers, hardly anything meaningful happened over the past 2 years with lots of serious issues not getting fixed
After initially hesitating, I decided to join Bluesky after having previously tried Mastodon and permanently leaving Twitter. While I was initially reluctant because Jack Dorsey had sold Twitter to Elon Musk, I still created a Bluesky account. I later came across Jason Koebler’s article on 404 Media, which validated my choice. His arguments aligned with my own reasons for preferring Bluesky over Mastodon. Link to the article: The Great Migration to Bluesky Gives Me Hope for the Future of the Internet.
404 is just mad because we mocked them relentlessly for not using content warnings on their goatse posts.
Isn’t Bluesky federated?
Nope. It’s unambiguously not federated. It maybe could be, if you take their words at face value
I think there might be some adapters bridging the distance… But the short answer is no, the long answer is not really
Pseudo-federated from what people are saying. Something about the user accounts being centralised but the data being decentralised. I don’t understand but it’s something funded by the previous owner of Twitter and full of other corporate money, so I wouldn’t trust it.
there is a critical ‘relay’ component that only they control. so you can setup your own ‘node’, but only connected to their instance.
only a single instance of the relay exists and they are not releasing that code and a few other pieces. it federates only with itself.
That pretty much sounds centralised. But I guess people don’t care if they don’t have to worry about “picking a server” which is “too complicated” 🤷
i think the new paradigm of the distributed fediverse is going to take a long time to propagate to the masses. its going to be lots of platforms advertising their corner of the 'verse and the features they permit… but we really need to get the idea of the ‘fediverse’ into their heads that its content accessible by any of those platforms.
the thing ive noticed is no one cares about ‘sites’ anymore… the kids all want ‘apps’ which is drivin me bonkers. spent decades building mobile-friendly, dynamic viewports only for them to get ignored cuz kids dont want to type in a URL/domain.
My impression is that it hasn’t been users that have pushed everything into apps, it’s been publishers. This is all a part of a general trend where software has become much less about what it can do for the user, and much more about what data it can extract from a user for the publisher. Websites generally have a lot more protections against such data scraping, meanwhile you can put who knows what code into an app.
If you look at how RSS fell from use, there were two major issues. On the user side, users had to go out to find content as there wasn’t an inherent way to search for content within the system. On the creator side, creators had to deal with advertising themselves to users and they had to handle the monetization by themselves.
Social media created the algorithm to find content and developed some revenue sharing with creators.
If federated media takes off, it will probably look like Threads or Truth Social, where control of a front end monetizes development of the platform.
That’s exactly what people want: no brainer alternative without the fediverse’s fragmentation
you pick a server with bluesky
Jack Dorsey has nothing by to do with Bluesky and hasn’t for a while now.
I believe it’s sort of tacked on and not exactly federated at the moment. Also it’s corporate run
In theory, yes. In practice, it’s a bit different. At the very least for now.
well, until they release all the code, and allow full federation its not a federating platform. end of story.
It calls itself federated, but it’s false advertising.
In theory, yes / kind of.
In practice, no, not really.
It uses a different protocol (AT protocol) than the Fediverse ActivityPub protocol, which is what lemmy and mastadon and pixelfed are all built on, so it is not natively interoperable with ActivityPub based Fediverse.
To do that you have to use bridging software of some kind.
Also, as others have pointed out… even if you do make the approximate equivalent of your own instance, a PDS… all of these still go through ‘Relays’, which BlueSky controls.
So… it is technically federated in the sense that it allows for anyone to make their own instance/PDS… but ultimately it is actually totally centralized.
Instead of a web or weave of many to many connections of independent admins/maintainers, the structure much more resembles a top down hierarchy that is ultimately all controlled by a profit driven corporation.
If the Relays go down, everything goes down.
If BlueSky decides they don’t appreciate your instance, they have unitary power to delist or block it, from everyone.
As compared with the Fediverse, where many different instances and communities can all pick and choose for themselves which other instances and communities they do and do not federate with, and where an outage particular to one community/instance only bricks that particular community/instance.
Community owned centralized systems are the answer.
I don’t understand what anyone uses twitter, bluesky or mastodon for anymore. I used twitter to follow companies (like CoffeeStain) or YouTubers/Artists.
Bluesky has some of that, meanwhile mastodon is just a circle pit of yelling and also the same stuff I see on Lemmy.
I don’t understand what people use it for. There’s no information to follow like company game accounts for games I play, and when I tried to do goofy shitposts like old twitter i got a grand total of 0 likes.I use masto for myself, not for likes. I use it to get SilentSunday and Mosstodon photos and to goof around with people I meet in the online space.
Sure it’d be nice to see a like or a response to a shit post, but for that you need to be followed by people who share your sensibilities, as there’s no algorithm boosting your stuff into other people’s timelines. Unless you use a relevant hashtag that’s being followed by others.
Sic cat pics
You can run your own relays, the obstacle is that each relay takes up many terabytes. But it’s fully open.
https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds
https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/entries/Notes on Running a Full-Network atproto Relay (July 2024)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42094369
https://docs.bsky.app/docs/advanced-guides/firehose
https://docs.bsky.app/docs/advanced-guides/federation-architecture#relay
This post is a request for attack surface area.
