Let’s make Windows 10 the last version ever used!
*Sat. 28 Dec. 11h* Stage YELL #KDEEco 's Call To Action against e-waste driven by #Windows10.
*Mon. 30 Dec. 13-15h* B&B habitat join the BoF to organize a global #FreeSoftware campaign to raise awareness of Windows 10’s EoL in 2025, the role of software in #eWaste, and how independent, sustainable #FOSS is a solution to keep devices in use & out of the landfill.
https://fahrplan.alpaka.space/jugend-hackt-38c3-2024/talk/ST8NJA/
I think the single biggest issue I have with Linux is package management. Maybe this is purely distribution dependent, but for example in Ubuntu most of the packages are way outdated, not even on the latest stable version. Then I either have to:
- Build from source which means I gotta also install all dependencies and pray that the thing builds
- Add some rando PPA which I have no idea if I should trust
- Use “flatpaks” or “appimages”
None of those options are appealing. And along with these multiple options I end up having multiple versions of things installed in different locations in different ways and also my PATH ends up a big mess, I think I’m just doing something very wrong.
Flatpaks environment now is the closest to the Windows experience.
Open the app store (GNOME Software / KDE Discover), search, click install, click run.
I just want a Windows base kernal that I can build my own OS off of. My own DE, my own programs, I want DX12 and NT. I want File Explorer and driver support for days.
But I also want freedom to not have a giant open hole where my data just dumps into a Microsoft cloud environment.
As someone who is way into the idea of Linux, wants to switch, and is very gun-shy about the million little programs and extensions I might not be able to replace, let me tell you what is required of anybody who is actually genuine in their desire to see Linux gain the traction it deserves:
Don’t ever tell anybody to read the manual again. Just answer the god damn question. It’s good when answers to basic, common problems are peppered around the internet like that; it’s dumb and wrong and weird to think of it as a thing to be avoided. If you’d like to put a link to the part of the manual where the questioner could have looked to find it, that’s cool, too. Don’t just leave the link–there’s a good chance they didn’t understand it and that’s why they’re asking. Maybe they just want a person-answer instead of a reference-manual-answer, and it’s good when the answer exists in both forms. Every answered question is a contribution.
I would go even further: the version of reality where Linux beats Windows and ushers in an era of community-centric open source dominance is populated by a Linux community that considers “rtfm”, “pebcac”, etc to be borderline bannable offenses. If you are a small, weak person, and want Linux to be your way of thinking you’re better than other people, you’ll drive question-askers away, back to Inferiority Land, using your knowledge to dunk on them instead of help them, and call it a win. These are the ugly bridge trolls, who may as well be paid Microsoft employees, keeping people away from your community, and a serious change of pace might yield much smoother adoption. At the very least, the community owes it to their own work to see how much smoother.
As someone considering the switch seriously, the knowledge that I may have to deal with people like that is absolutely, 100% a factor, and I am someone who has no qualms about telling someone on the internet to fuck off, so it’s gonna be more of an issue for many others who are more conflict-averse.
The Linux community needs to take very seriously whether it actually wants increased open source adoption, or if it wants to remain a tiny minority so that it has a nice, large majority to feel better than.
I always try to help new users. I was a beginner once so I know how it feels to be told to rtfm by some cunt. Half the time I have an issue i’ll search it up only to find some reddit post with someone asking the same question and getting shit on by elitists who have nothing going on in their own lives. In any case, if you ever need help I or someone else would be happy to help to the best of our ability.
I hate it when you Google an issue and all you can find is a Reddit thread of the same problem where the only response is someone saying to Google it
I’ll take that over the windows ‘support’ forums where the people with superuser titles don’t understand basic questions and the answer tends to be to see if it gets fixed in a future version of windows.
And those posts are a decade old because they were never fixed.
Without offenses but it’s important to read instructions for anything in this life, the wash machine, robot cooking, your daily medication, etc., all of them have instructions.
Most people that says “read the documentation” is also tired of people that can’t read instructions how things works, and in this open source world everything minimum popular is well documented.
I feel Windows users lacks many documentation and people are used to click to .exe that claims to do what they need to do, or they just follow some random user on a forum.
When someone asks me to teach them to learn to programming, I tell them to just read documentation. No need to pay for extra courses or YouTube videos, most of the time you can learn it better and up to date if you go to the documentation.
Then, after you did the proper search, it would make sense to open a post asking for help to gurus, telling them the steps you followed providing context and logs, if you don’t do that, most experts would just ignore you if you can’t spend time reading docs, they won’t spend time solving your issue normally.
Even home appliances don’t come with the full spec technical manual. They come with the user manual so you’d know how to use your appliance, not how to fix your appliance (with the exceptions being some easy to fix user errors). When people get technical errors on their home appliances they call a technician to fix those errors, because most people lack the technical knowledge to fix things themselves. And I imagine it’s the same for you. I’m pretty sure you don’t fix your own car. Now imagine if you went to a mechanic to have your car fixed and they say “Just read the fucking manual and don’t waste my time”. What are you going to do? Read the manual that you didn’t even know existed until that point and you’d first have to spend some time actually finding the manual (because some of those technical manuals are a fucking pain in the ass to find, if they’re even readily available), or find another mechanic that would fix your car? What if all the mechanics tell you to go read the manual? How much of your own time would you be willing to invest into fixing an issue you didn’t want to fix by yourself in the first place? What if someone offered to replace your entire car for free? Would you still spend time fixing your car or would you go “fuck it, I just need it to work”?
And that’s the average Windows/Linux user. They just want an operating system that works. They don’t want to understand all the technical stuff that goes on under the hood and when something breaks they want “a technician” to give them a quick solution, because knowing the inner workings of Linux is not a priority for them. Maybe they’re the car mechanic that would fix your car and they’ve spent their time learning the inner works of a few dozen cars. People focus their time and attention on different things so getting angry at someone not wanting to learn Linux is like a car mechanic getting angry at you for not wanting to learn how your car works or a personal trainer getting angry because you don’t know how your own body works etc… Just because you know how Linux works does not mean everyone should know how Linux works.
people that can’t read instructions how things works
Pretty sure that’s their point: If the instructions are too complex or intimidating, particularly if they’re technically written, they may genuinely be unreadable to some users.
There’s a certain effect where, if something seems overwhelming, particularly if you already feared it might be, that will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. And once the overwhelm starts, once it sounds even a little too complex for users to be confident in their understanding, the brain goes into panic mode and holds on to “aaaah I can’t do this”.
So yes, some people genuinely can’t read instructions because static instructions don’t talk to them, just at them, with no ability to respond and reassure if that panic hits. Human interaction often seems less intimidating because they can (ideally) respond to your confusion, reword just that part, hold your hand through the process, all of which instructions can’t.
Throwing them into the pool and telling them to learn swimming doesn’t help: It makes them want to leave. Learning to read docs is a skill itself that needs to be developed separately, but making it an entry barrier risks scaring people off before their investment of time and focus starts paying off.
and in this open source world everything minimum popular is well documented.
Are those docs written or proofread by noobs? My experience with tech people (including myself, unfortunately) is that we tend to think in specific trained (or perhaps intuitive to us) patterns that don’t neatly map on how non-techies perceive and understand the world. If I try to explain something, I don’t even know where there are parts that I’d need to simplify, explain differently, what metaphors I could use to help understand and so on.
Of course, techies do want those details I’d have to omit for non-techies. Some guides do really well with a “simple” and an “advanced” version of instructions. However, “documentation” doesn’t always equal “guide”, and some docs are really just a dry list of functiond and syntax, which brings us back to the topic of having to learn to read docs.
When someone asks me to teach them to learn to programming
…they’re already past the first threshold of “This is all way too much, I’ll never learn that”. Anyone willing to engage with programming already has conquered - or never had - that initial fear of not understanding stuff. For them, docs might not be much of a barrier, and if they’re well-written may be a good point for slightly more advanced stuff.
I’d argue they’ll still need an initial intro to “how to think like a programmer” (or rather, “like a computer, and to solve backwards from that”), but in any case, they’re not the target audience for “Linux as competitive desktop”.
Non-techies are, and to them, tech may well be scary. We need to account for that and ease them in by whatever means work best for them, if we want them to come to us, not what suits us best.
This 100% I’m the computer person in my social circles, and my head sometimes starts to hurt from reading less than ideal documentation. Granted those are usually for pretty involved stuff, but it’s pretty frustrating spending hours to chew through and not getting an answer after all.
I’d imagine it’s worse for people whose PC is not a hobby but a tool. You shouldn’t need to spend a lot of time and effort on a tool just to get it working right. That might be fine for a used bargain tool, but you don’t replace like half the world’s OS’s with a used bargain tool. That’s not what people want or need.
Learning to read docs is a skill itself that needs to be developed separately
I think that is what you need to do to learn anything on computers… It’s a skill, yeah, you need to improve it and not get scared, I remember those feelings a time ago, and now I realize everything fixes if I just read the docs/issues. No need to ask, so I wish the best for you and remember always to read the docs before posting/asking.
Are those docs written or proofread by noobs?
Depends, if a noob tries to do something complex they won’t be able, let’s use common sense also here. Don’t try to do your own distro, but you can learn how Kdenlive works to edit a video or use
--helpon a command if you are not sure what it does or can do.techies do want those details I’d have to omit for non-techies
If you don’t understand the technical details of the documentation, or you search for what are those technical details (that can solve your issues) or you are on the wrong documentation.
For a common user, if they want to play a game they just need to install Steam and enable the option to play Windows games on Linux, that would be the same as doing it on Windows, if the user doesn’t know how to do it, they search and some user or doc explains to go to the settings and enable it, or install steam via commands or using GUI.
If the application Kdenlive stopped to work without any error message, then you can go to the source git page and look for issues related, and you would appreciate a lot to find all the open source programs and dependencies with their own git pages to find recent issues reported (on Windows is harder as most stuff is hidden and closed).
But if Microsoft Office stop to work without any error message, then yeah, developers needs to send you random steps to hope it fixes your issues, and probably they won’t ask you the logs, not much doc to read for this case. I think they have some basic help steps like re-install, clean cache and reboot your device, that doesn’t really help when something is crashing hard.
If the documentation you’re reading is too technic then you need to improve your tech skills, there is nothing wrong learning how a desktop interface works (as example), in the future you will be able to adapt it to your needs, and it won’t force you to accept a change like with WinXP/Win7/Win8/Win10/Win11 interfaces.
…they’re already past the first threshold of “This is all way too much, I’ll never learn that”.
Maybe 3 of 10 people that asked me that actually did anything, other people are just lazy that thinks the work of a programmer is easy, as a programmer we need to read many documentation for everything new or change or update on our development stuff. We not only read but also write documentation, to then, some random guy to ask something you have been writing on your own blog and documentation. Understand then if they just respond you telling to read the docs.
you need to improve it and not get scared [emphasis mine]
That’s the issue. The median user will get scared. They can’t accurately assess their own competence before they try it, and trying something new is scary. “What if I break something? What if I can’t undo it?” They won’t rely on docs or git pages or man pages or
--help(they may not want to touch the CLI at all), because ultimately, that would require them relying on their own understanding thereof.Impersonal docs, particularly if they’re not written with accessibility for laypeople in mind, can’t replace guides, and a general guide can’t replace specific advice, and none of these can replace the assurance of having a universally helpful support community that will hold their hand if they need it and reliably bail them out if something goes wrong. The median user cannot possibly teach themselves, because they lack the fundamental knowledge and confidence to even assess their level of understanding. You and I, we’re on the tech end of the distribution. We have a basic understanding and mindset. The median user does not.
They can’t trust themselves, so they need someone else to trust. If we want to welcome more people into the FOSS ecosystem in general and Linux in particular, we need to be that someone, and they need to know that they will have that support.
It’s not just about helping them, it’s about the public impression. If they google for assistance and only find threads telling people to RTFM, they’re scared to ask, scared to try even. The learning curve you take for granted, the skill “you need to improve”, looks a lot like a wall from that point of view.
Linux is still perceived as a rather technical thing. We need to cultivate the impression - and the community to back it up - that it’s not actually complicated, and that you’ll readily find people to help you if you take the leap.
Improving tech literacy is an important thing, no doubt, but you can’t get people on board by saying “you have to”. You have to coax them over by promising easy returns on a small investment of time and effort, then let their curiosity lead them further - if they need deeper skills at all.
or you are on the wrong documentation.
Ah yes, because you have the choice of so many different documentations for everything, and all those documentations make sure to point out the others in case you landed on the wrong one for you.
other people are just lazy that thinks the work of a programmer is easy
Doesn’t have to be laziness. If your misconception is shattered, that’s a shock. If they don’t have anyone to ease them through that shock, they’ll do the most natural thing: stay away. If you make it easy to get into, you’ll surely have more success than by walling them off so that only those willing to climb can get into your walled garden.
I don’t get now where you want to go now. If you want to know about computers then read, if not… just keep using things that marketing sells you. If you want to ask without reading, then better pay for a professional (or ask for someone close to you that knows computers). Like all Windows users do when they have issues. And this would apply online, if you don’t pay them, why they need to read for you? Pay for the time professionals spend for you if you can’t read. Normally people don’t read complex documentation, they just need how to install some app or how to configure something from their desktop or printer drivers, pay or read how to do it, doesn’t matter if you are using Windows or Linux, because Windows also crashes and have issues also, Linux is ready for users.
If you make it easy
Anything new is hard, if they are used to Windows as most people, everyone would think Windows is easier than Linux, but it’s just because they are used to the other OS. Get used to Linux. Use it, read how it works. Start small. Don’t read complex documentation or even try to compile the kernel on your first day.
This is why everything comes with a quick start 1 page guide AND a manual.
So many cheap laptops are about to hit the market, and I’m ready for it.
My gaming desktop is the last barrier to a full transition, but I’ve been buying exclusively games with a Linux release for over a year now. Buckshot Roulette, Deep Rock Galactic, Hearts of Iron, Lethal Company, Project Zomboid… There’s quite a few big ones.
I would really love it if we could get normal people using Linux but Linux has to come to them in terms of usability, to be honest. The Steam Deck did it, so it’s clearly doable.
But in the state of things we’re in, I’m afraid that *most people* are gonna follow Windows to Windows 11. and their understandings of how computing is will be mutilated by it.
and therefore we get more anprims per capita, because if you think that’s not at least in part downstream of big tech fuckery you’re lying to yourself
You’re so close. What’s actually needed is that it comes pre-installed by default.
Linux ain’t the problem there. Usability is more of that nonsense thought up by corporations to scare people. Computers are tricky, whether Windows or Linux, and the only reason Windows is more popular is they’ve been installing it on people’s computers without asking for decades. Honestly most people don’t even have computers these days. All they get to have is a phone.
CC: @be4foss@floss.social @kde@lemmy.kde.social @NafiTheBear@bears.town
I agree. I am quite comfortable with computers but, since I have switched to Linux about 10 years ago, I struggle any time I am asked for help on a Windows system.
It’s not intuitive at all. Among the quirks, there are still 2 separate control panels that overlap, but not completely, then you have ever-buggy OneDrive, invasive notifications, a convoluted Start menu, …
People find it simple only because they are used to it.
@gyro @be4foss @kde the goal of that event is very ambitious I agree, but if I see that alone this year I myself made 4 friends and my mom to move to Linux then getting Linux to a solid market share and minimalising waste is a practicable goal.
I wouldn’t say it was easy. It is hard work and explaining a normal person what the difference between X11 and Wayland is is next to impossible.
There will be some people who just can’t afford a new PC and we basically just need to help them.
@gyro @be4foss @kde @NafiTheBear i think a significant amount of people are going to just not bother buying another laptop once their Win10 one sucks too much, because they’re on their phones for everything these days
It’s certainly an interesting move from the side of Microsoft. Discontinuing W10 will certainly lose them some marketshare.
@kyle_pegasus
@be4foss @kde @NafiTheBearWell that’s depressing, that gonna put us so much further away from ever making things good again
That’s what they don’t understand.
Every year is the year of the Linux desktop, that’s why we say it every year.
~random 4chan post I’m surely misquoting
Never thought Id upvote a KDE post…
What’s not to love about KDE?
It not a tiling wm by default :(
I’m still using my thinkpad that’s 11 years running Linux mint beautifully.
I’m doing my part.
I unregistered my Win 10 key last Sunday and removed the SSD. All my IT is Windows free.
I’m still rocking a 2010 dual Xeon Mac Pro. I have no desire to use anything else. That plus my Steam Deck are good enough for me.
W11 is like vista, all frills and no substance. Some people will skip the upgrade due to slowness (it’s slow with i7+16gb sometimes) and in case of users who use chrome only, ChromeOS flex or its siblings could be a solution.
You’re quite late. I don’t know if you’ve heard, but they’ve got Windows 11 now. There are people using it. Not me, but people.
All true. The point is that win 11 doesn’t support a lot of old hardware that’s perfectly usable, just doesn’t have TPM2.0 chips built into them. There are some hacks around it, but it takes a great deal of desire and proficiency to make them work.
Yeah, and it sucks in like 30 other ways, but unfortunately people aren’t smart and will be going to 11 like the drones they are. I’m dual booting Linux and 10 and spend 100% of my time on 10 because having to configure and go into terminal 24/7 isn’t as fun as Lemmy makes it out to be.
having to configure and go into console 24/7
You’re not running any Linux that I’ve used in the past ten years then. What relic of a bygone age are you running?
Right? I’ve been running Mint the past year, can count the amount of times I had to boot into windows on my fingers, and having to use the terminal to do things is like an occasional, once every couple months thing, usually to solve a problem I’ve created for myself.
I remember trying Linux in the early 2010s. When it looked like a modern OS, but behaved like it always had up to that point. That was misery.
also anyone who complains about the terminal in Linux is clearly not very computer competent in Windows, as I recall frequently using Command Prompt and PowerShell to get shit done. At least, they’re not doing anything remotely complex if they’ve never encountered or had to use either.
He’s either using a 15 year old copy of Ubuntu, or he dove straight into the deep end with Arch like a dumbass and nobody told him about the wiki.
Or using an atomic/immutable distro like Bazzite. If it’s not flatpacked, you have to either distrobox or docker it. Something as simple as a Plex server does require terminal use.
Lol. Not taking the bait on this one. Have a good Christmas.
Genuinely interested so I can try it out. It sounds like fun.
deleted by creator
^ 10 bucks this guy uses Arch instead of anything simpler lol
Most settings average “Facebook machine” users need are available on common distros without touching a console.
Unless you want to emulate common windows software. Then only God can save you.
I use Arch, btw
is QEMU god?
I’ve been on Linux Mint for the past several months and I think I’ve needed the terminal twice?
Once I couldn’t find a GUI option to adjust the brightness/gamma, but searching found me the terminal command so I just used that.
More recently I needed newer Nvidia drivers than were available by default, so I had to add a new PPA thing. We’ll find out later today if I’m going to regret that.
I relent, I need to switch. the proposed bullshit has gotten to much for even me, the world’s laziest man.
Just a lazy man in a worky world. Should have been born a Limited Liability Corporation.
Just used the kid as a guinea pig. All AMD rig, Bazzite with Gnome to make it a little more UI familiar for him. It’s pretty much a gaming only station but he’s had zero issues.
Linux is ready for the webbrowser. Office? No, MS Office does not run and still the marketshare for MS Office is very high on Windows. It does not run on Linux. If the alternatives were better then people would use them. Gaming? Maybe for Steam OS but that is only one distro. If you choose something else you will not have such smooth experience. The user might be better off by moving to console. Any business tool like Adobe or custom built Windows tools does not work. This is very hard to change. Hence many can’t even move to mac os due to this. Media Player/View Pictures? Yes, Linux is ready here.
Can you choose to have Linux pre installed on a new laptop? No, not normally.
There is still some work to do. I hope we get there. We are close for home users.
Personally I use Fedora with Firefox.
If the alternatives were better then people would use them
No. You are underestimating the power of a monopoly.
And Microsoft software comes pre-installed on every shelf computer.
Linux isn’t ready for the mass Market yet. I say that as someone that has been a Windows free household for like over 8 years and who actively attempts to convert as many of my friends as I can.
It is not and probably never will be general market ready. Too fragmented and too many options. Which is why I love it so I wouldn’t want it to change either.
It is ready if you start learning it from children, but people first touches a Windows machine, and then they get used to what they already know.
Example of someone that never touched a Windows, post from 2 years ago: https://duncanlock.net/blog/2022/04/06/using-windows-after-15-years-on-linux/
And I read people that claims they are better on Ubuntu because is what they first started to use (because of lack of money) and now they find it hard to use Windows, because they got used to Linux and they aren’t either programmers.
Maybe what Linux needs is marketing. The Steam console is an example of how well it sells.
Some Valve documentation was released concerning third party hardware shipping with SteamOS. Big if true.
there are loads of options, but if you ask almost any linux person what distro you should start with, the answer is mint
I’m not sure what universe you live in lol. Yes lots of people like mint but plenty hate it. I don’t hate it but it wouldn’t be/hasn’t been my recommendation when converting people
@LordKitsuna @pupbiru Same here. I wouldn’t recommend Mint mostly because I don’t have experience with it, but also, I haven’t heard anything about it that makes me think it’d be a slam-dunk recommendation even if I had used it.
Can it run substance painter yet?
Substance painter has always ran on Linux, has it not?
I had no idea they had a Linux version, but I can’t find any cracked copies quite as easily as I can for windows. Suggestions welcome.
You could try the steam version with lutris, no idea how well that works
I thino they mean Adobe Substance Painter. I don’t think it works on Linux, as it also requires Creative Cloud, iirc.
