Hey dude I hope you’re doing good! I’m just popping in to add in here:
It is actually already a federal law that people who were IVC’d in any state have that reported into NICs and have their guns confiscated. It isn’t “red flag laws” specifically which seek to broaden the law we already have (depending on state, with a burden of proof as low as “he said she said” in some cases, always at a secret hearing you aren’t allowed to even know about much less defend yourself, and then they may return them 1yr later when you finally do get your day in court if you can prove the negative.)
So, we don’t have a red flag law nationally, but we do have 18 U.S.C. § 922(d), [which states:] it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.”
Seems a lot of people (on and off lemmy) aren’t aware of this law (which, in this case, would have prevented this had the beaurocrats done their jobs), just figured I’d let y’all know.
That’s the problem… the word “adjudicated”. Unless it goes through a judge, the guns are NOT confiscated and it does not show up on a background check.
So the Maine shooter was held, it didn’t go through a judge, was not “adjudicated”.
“In 2017, he was the subject of a Baker Act call, used to place persons under involuntary detainment for mental health examination for up to 72 hours.[6]”
“Garcia was then enlisted in the U.S. Army in June 2008, but he never completed basic training: he was terminated after three months due to mental health concerns.[39][40] Because this was an administrative separation, rather than a punitive discharge, Garcia’s termination by the Army would not show up on the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.[41]”
Ah, I see. To me that isn’t necessarily a bad thing though, to require some proof before removal of one’s rights. If anyone can just say “my ex said X” then what is stopping people from abusing that? Right wingers calling it in on trans people who are trying to protect themselves from right wing violence for instance, or an abusive ex having his ex-wife’s guns taken so he can go hurt her, something like that. I personally believe it should require at least some proof that would hold up in court. I’m also not a huge fan of the whole “Take the guns first, due process second” approach that Trump supported with the red flag law secret hearings business, I think that if someone is making verifiable threats, you should be able to charge them with that in a normal, non-secret hearing, leading to the adjucated IVC, removal of rights, flagged in NICs, etc.
I think there is a way that we could all agree on, gun rights supporters and realistic gun control supporters alike (the no-guns crowd aside). Something like actually sending these people through a judge in a timely manner oughta at least be a step in the right direction.
Yeah, it’s not that rights should be taken away without going through a judge, it’s that more things NEED to go through judges to create the appropriate disqualifying paper trail.
I’d argue too that we need to expand what is a disqualifying event. If you look at the Michigan State shooter, he had been arrested on a felony gun charge, allowed to plead down to a misdemeanor, did his time, then when his background check was clear, he bought another gun, and here we are.
Should we allow people to plead down from felony to misdemeanor when the charge involves guns? A felony charge would have blocked him from buying a gun.
Maybe, when it comes to gun charges, a misdemeanor should also be a disqualifier? Right now it’s only felony charges, but if someone has already proven they can’t be trusted around a gun…
My only concern there comes from another opinion I have “A lot of shit that is a felony should be a misdemeanor, and a lot of shit that is a misdemeanor shouldn’t even be a crime.”
I’ll need to look to see his specific charge, but off the top of my head I can think of two “gun charges” that should at least be misdemeanors if crimes at all.
CCW without a permit. IMO this should be a misdemeanor at best. Hell, about half of the states no longer require one, they certianly aren’t necessary even if they’re a good idea. I also posit that if voter ID laws are racist because black people can’t get state IDs easily, CCW permits are the same (and also sometimes subject to sherriff approval and can be abused outright by a racist sherriff easily if you’re in a shit county.) These laws typically do impact marginalized neighborhoods rather than gated communities, as the poor are more likely to work saturdays (when they have the classes), not be able to afford the 100+ dollar fee, etc.
Having guns and illegal drugs. Frankly, I don’t think this should be a crime at all. “I believe gay married couples should be free to defend their marijuana farms with AR15s.” Now, if they’re using the guns to steal for drugs, well now they’re committing real crimes (robbery) and we absolutely lock them up, but simply “yes I smoke weed and yes I will protect myself shall you try to kill me” should not even be a crime.
Brandishing or something with an actual victim I 100% agree though. Like I said idk what his specific gun crime was I have to look it up when I get a sec.
Because in New York he was reported from a military base and they removed him from the base. They had no knowledge of what he may or may not have had in Maine.
I’m trying, but it’s an emotional subject that people don’t want to look at too closely. They want easy answers and there really aren’t any. :(
The best bet is to assume stuff like “ban guns” or “ban semi-automatic rifles” can’t happen, and start looking at what CAN happen if we want real change.
Nnnooo, it’s still a failure of the cops. The law, as it is, is a good law. The problem here, again, is that the cops didn’t do their jobs.
Edit: Sometimes a law is poorly written so law enforcement can’t do what’s necessary to enforce it or the law doesn’t really address a problem. That’s not what happened here; the cops simply chose not to enforce the law, and that’s entirely on them.
The reality is that the laws are the written minimum expectations of our social contract.
If enough of the unwritten social contract falls apart, you’ll be amazed at how quickly it becomes obvious that most laws aren’t really enforced.
I mean cops won’t even show up for most shoplifting cases these days, so what stops most people from shoplifting?
The social contract that we hold dear. As long as I can have my needs met legally, I will do it.
As soon as I can’t feed and house myself legally, I won’t choose to “not eat” because of cops.
That doesn’t make much sense. That’s not how many laws are enforced. What do you even mean by “initiative”? Weird how they could stop my friend on the street, shove their hands in his pockets to search him for “drugs” (cannabis) and give him a ticket for loitering but when some guy tells someone he wants to shoot up a military base, no problem.
Or they can pull us over repeatedly as teens and say “where are you going tonight? Any drugs in the car? Can I search your car?” Those were failed laws but not due to “initiative”.
The thing is, he was a prime candidate to fall under the Yellow Flag law with the threats he made.
The police didn’t do their job and invoke it.
The problem was, when he made the threats, he was in New York. He was committed for 2 weeks in New York. Maine’s yellow flag law had no jurisdiction.
New York has a red flag law, but his home and guns were in Maine.
We solve this problem with a FEDERAL Red Flag law.
Hey dude I hope you’re doing good! I’m just popping in to add in here:
It is actually already a federal law that people who were IVC’d in any state have that reported into NICs and have their guns confiscated. It isn’t “red flag laws” specifically which seek to broaden the law we already have (depending on state, with a burden of proof as low as “he said she said” in some cases, always at a secret hearing you aren’t allowed to even know about much less defend yourself, and then they may return them 1yr later when you finally do get your day in court if you can prove the negative.)
So, we don’t have a red flag law nationally, but we do have 18 U.S.C. § 922(d), [which states:] it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.”
Seems a lot of people (on and off lemmy) aren’t aware of this law (which, in this case, would have prevented this had the beaurocrats done their jobs), just figured I’d let y’all know.
That’s the problem… the word “adjudicated”. Unless it goes through a judge, the guns are NOT confiscated and it does not show up on a background check.
So the Maine shooter was held, it didn’t go through a judge, was not “adjudicated”.
Same for Jacksonville:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Jacksonville_shooting
“In 2017, he was the subject of a Baker Act call, used to place persons under involuntary detainment for mental health examination for up to 72 hours.[6]”
Same for Allen, Texas:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Allen,_Texas_mall_shooting
“Garcia was then enlisted in the U.S. Army in June 2008, but he never completed basic training: he was terminated after three months due to mental health concerns.[39][40] Because this was an administrative separation, rather than a punitive discharge, Garcia’s termination by the Army would not show up on the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.[41]”
Ah, I see. To me that isn’t necessarily a bad thing though, to require some proof before removal of one’s rights. If anyone can just say “my ex said X” then what is stopping people from abusing that? Right wingers calling it in on trans people who are trying to protect themselves from right wing violence for instance, or an abusive ex having his ex-wife’s guns taken so he can go hurt her, something like that. I personally believe it should require at least some proof that would hold up in court. I’m also not a huge fan of the whole “Take the guns first, due process second” approach that Trump supported with the red flag law secret hearings business, I think that if someone is making verifiable threats, you should be able to charge them with that in a normal, non-secret hearing, leading to the adjucated IVC, removal of rights, flagged in NICs, etc.
I think there is a way that we could all agree on, gun rights supporters and realistic gun control supporters alike (the no-guns crowd aside). Something like actually sending these people through a judge in a timely manner oughta at least be a step in the right direction.
Yeah, it’s not that rights should be taken away without going through a judge, it’s that more things NEED to go through judges to create the appropriate disqualifying paper trail.
I’d argue too that we need to expand what is a disqualifying event. If you look at the Michigan State shooter, he had been arrested on a felony gun charge, allowed to plead down to a misdemeanor, did his time, then when his background check was clear, he bought another gun, and here we are.
Should we allow people to plead down from felony to misdemeanor when the charge involves guns? A felony charge would have blocked him from buying a gun.
Maybe, when it comes to gun charges, a misdemeanor should also be a disqualifier? Right now it’s only felony charges, but if someone has already proven they can’t be trusted around a gun…
My only concern there comes from another opinion I have “A lot of shit that is a felony should be a misdemeanor, and a lot of shit that is a misdemeanor shouldn’t even be a crime.”
I’ll need to look to see his specific charge, but off the top of my head I can think of two “gun charges” that should at least be misdemeanors if crimes at all.
CCW without a permit. IMO this should be a misdemeanor at best. Hell, about half of the states no longer require one, they certianly aren’t necessary even if they’re a good idea. I also posit that if voter ID laws are racist because black people can’t get state IDs easily, CCW permits are the same (and also sometimes subject to sherriff approval and can be abused outright by a racist sherriff easily if you’re in a shit county.) These laws typically do impact marginalized neighborhoods rather than gated communities, as the poor are more likely to work saturdays (when they have the classes), not be able to afford the 100+ dollar fee, etc.
Having guns and illegal drugs. Frankly, I don’t think this should be a crime at all. “I believe gay married couples should be free to defend their marijuana farms with AR15s.” Now, if they’re using the guns to steal for drugs, well now they’re committing real crimes (robbery) and we absolutely lock them up, but simply “yes I smoke weed and yes I will protect myself shall you try to kill me” should not even be a crime.
Brandishing or something with an actual victim I 100% agree though. Like I said idk what his specific gun crime was I have to look it up when I get a sec.
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Because in New York he was reported from a military base and they removed him from the base. They had no knowledge of what he may or may not have had in Maine.
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Yeah, because other folks in his unit reported him.
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I’m trying, but it’s an emotional subject that people don’t want to look at too closely. They want easy answers and there really aren’t any. :(
The best bet is to assume stuff like “ban guns” or “ban semi-automatic rifles” can’t happen, and start looking at what CAN happen if we want real change.
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No, that would be failed enforcement.
deleted by creator
All laws depend on cops to take initiative. That’s why they are called “Law Enforcement” lmao.
Nnnooo, it’s still a failure of the cops. The law, as it is, is a good law. The problem here, again, is that the cops didn’t do their jobs.
Edit: Sometimes a law is poorly written so law enforcement can’t do what’s necessary to enforce it or the law doesn’t really address a problem. That’s not what happened here; the cops simply chose not to enforce the law, and that’s entirely on them.
No, it’s not a good law. Red flag laws are bad enough. Maine’s law is a joke
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna122541
If cops are ineffective, then who enforces the law, fucknut?
Mostly nobody.
The reality is that the laws are the written minimum expectations of our social contract.
If enough of the unwritten social contract falls apart, you’ll be amazed at how quickly it becomes obvious that most laws aren’t really enforced.
I mean cops won’t even show up for most shoplifting cases these days, so what stops most people from shoplifting?
The social contract that we hold dear. As long as I can have my needs met legally, I will do it. As soon as I can’t feed and house myself legally, I won’t choose to “not eat” because of cops.
That doesn’t make much sense. That’s not how many laws are enforced. What do you even mean by “initiative”? Weird how they could stop my friend on the street, shove their hands in his pockets to search him for “drugs” (cannabis) and give him a ticket for loitering but when some guy tells someone he wants to shoot up a military base, no problem.
Or they can pull us over repeatedly as teens and say “where are you going tonight? Any drugs in the car? Can I search your car?” Those were failed laws but not due to “initiative”.
If you ban the sales, cops don’t have to hunt down individuals
There are already more guns than people in the US.
“It’s too late to try, let’s give up on everything!!”
Great take bud
Your positions are somewhat unclear, but I think we basically agree.
That’s how laws work
You think police forces should rule with an iron fist, you say?
Yes, that’s exactly what I said /s
Ban assault weapons